A Carbon Neutral Laptop Option

No, discussion around that is fine, since Framework sees this as a valuable tool. Trying to “educate” other users with scientifically questionable (or outright wrong) statements is not, and pointing out that others are being misled if they do not adhere to this thinking is definitely wrong.

We are here to discuss the Framework laptop. The revelation that Running Tide is perhaps not what was promised is worth discussing.

Political discussions are just too volatile to take place here and are rarely relevant - there are other venues for these discussions.

Moderation on this forum is really very light. We do not often moderate, but when we do put out a light warning, take it seriously since any pushback on the warning will necessitate further and more drastic action.

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Yep that is called greenwashing. A lot of the “green” businesses like Tesla and windmills are actually worse for the environment. If someone really wants green transportation, they should be using a 100% recyclable and biodegradable thing called a horse :wink:

Being vegan that’s my legs that get used: Fairer trade.

Well it’s getting further away from the Carbon Neutral topic. Carbon neutral could offset some climate change, but the focus is still on material consumption. When that is the focus all material efforts are damaging. As for worse it’s personal ethics and relative.

The conversation is alive even if it’s killing everything else.

Like with many things, the options available to achieve carbon neutrality are dependent on businesses providing solutions, and businesses won’t touch anything that doesn’t lead to a big profit (enough to pay for country club fees, private school for the kids, and a McMansion for every executive) and those profits often involve cutting corners and/or doing really bad things to the environment and possibly using slave labor in Xinjiang etc. I like to recommend the documentary Planet of the Humans (produced by M Moore) to get a view of just how big business has hijacked and ruined the formerly grassroots “green” movement.

I’m in favor of long term carbon sequestration because while trees do a good job short term, they are quite vulnerable. I own 25 acres of forest in California with large trees and I protect it as best I can but it could go up in smoke tomorrow and there would be nothing I could do to stop that large release of carbon directly into the atmosphere. The MIT Technology Review article is very interesting and perhaps gives Frame.Work a reason to consider another sequestration method. Regarding products being carbon-neutral, I agree it is oriented towards consumers but just try not being a consumer. Even a vegan needs to buy refrigerator unless he has a root cellar and wants to live on potatoes all winter.

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Been vegan for 50 years and no fridge and no root seller. South west UK temp range 0 to 40°C

No car, solar for 40 years, rain and wood, 40 acres, living expenses including all food input organic and fairtrade. £40 a week.

Few potatoes lots of dried beans, corn and wheat, greens and leeks . . . . .

Most electricity spent on this laptop 6hrs a day at 16W/Hr max

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Perhaps you don’t mean to come across as preachy but this is by and large unobtainable for most people I would think. I have no idea what land prices are like in the UK but 40 acres on an island with limited space for people sounds expensive. I live in a rural state in the US and 40 acres here would still cost you a pretty penny.

If you are saying that the majority of your electrical consumption comes from using your laptop…I don’t believe it, not at 40C temps. That is dangerously hot and requires A/C unless you have an incredibly well designed and insulated home.

It just comes across as incredibly privileged to me.

None of that matter to the main point. Attempts to buy carbon credits is just putting lipstick on a pig. Reductions in emissions will always be better than carbon credits. A manufacturer program that responsibly deals with waste would lend far more credence to what Framework preaches than this Carbon Credit program. This criticism is not new in any way and has been repeated by others on the forum and I’m sure elsewhere.

I live in MS, there are NO recycling programs of any kind in the town I live, there is no public funding for such a program. There is limited ways for me to properly dispose of hazardous wastes. It’s a pain in the ass as it is for me recycle plastic bags and the like, a local hardware store has some bins set up for the purpose but they really are insufficient for a town of the size I live in.

I’m all for re-use of mainboards as that is superior to recycling. There isn’t even a proper way for users who are upgrading to advertise old boards for sale or donation. Not everyone wants to or has a project to repurpose old boards. Framework has done better than most and they credit for that but they haven’t done enough. I would prefer they spent the money on these carbon credits on something that isn’t of questionable value.

I’m a freak and have been vegan and living off grid for 45 years so I’ve had a lot of practice and honed my consumption to where I am.

Preachy I can understand but I am absolutely not encouraging anyone to consider their consumption unless they make it a topic for discussion. And even then my argument is not that they should change but to clarify that no matter what effort is placed on environmental care it is ‘green washing’ and I know how to wash by hand with olive oil soap and rain water.

I don’t like this notion of carbon neutral as I see it a consumer scam to make some products more attractive and hence justify consumption.

For example I don’t promote being vegan or using solar for the same reasons.

I don’t preach, I argue when confronted by people who say and tout the benefits of their preferred consumption.

Sadly I joined the forum and another that touts these idea, the Fairphone one.

As far as temp goes, 40°C is rare but 32%deg; isn’t. The cpu temp etc rarely goes above 45 and the fan never comes on.

As far as the privilege goes, yes but that is relative. I am a UK citizen not an Afghani so I do can buy land and largely remove myself from consumerism.

My view is that anyone that can spend a #1000 on a computer etc. has made a choice and could have bought land and then they wouldn’t be talking about how other people have eased their conscience by carbon neutralising the product as they would be able to allow vegetation to grow and even crop some.

I recognise your concerns but

This is another one of the privileges in UK all authorities must collect and recycle household waste, but as you broached the notion, I have very little waste.

Socialist can tout care by installing systems for the ‘good’ of all
Capitalist can install systems to make profit
Freaks have a choice to use either system, throw it in the hedge or stop creating the waste.

So sadly I have taken this far from it’s intended course maybe as it is about a laptop but the Carbon Neutral is really the subject isn’t it? Hence can this topic accept all this privileged opinion or not.

If not I will block any updates so as not to further engage.

Thanks for your concern

All the best

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Socialists were always backed by capitalists though, starting with the Lenin and Trotsky who were given $millions by Wall St. to incite their phony revolution. Their “caring” resulted in tens of millions dying in camps, often worked to death, plus millions starving to death in Ukraine.

There’s nothing freakish about caring for your health, community and local environment. True independence can be hard to accomplish without wealth. Maybe you can write a book about how you did it.

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I asked some people I know who are involved with carbon sequestration research and guidance for the National Marine Sanctuaries and they said basically that the sinking-kelp scheme for marine carbon dioxide removal is an interesting idea worth investigating, and it poses perhaps “medium” environmental risk, but there are a lot of unknowns which warrant proceeding with caution. Some of them think it is premature to sell carbon offsets to companies based on that unproven idea, and that we are a long way off on having enough research to back inclusion in carbon markets.

Unfortunately, I think we are running out of time to make these decisions and given the time required to scale up, being too cautious could be a big mistake.

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That sort of fits into human resource exploitation. Rush to consume ~ rush to hide the consequential devastation by creating another so called solution to a problem we have created with blind caution.

More caution or less . . .

This carbon dioxide fear seems to me mainly a fixation of the West and its allies, which are showing they are willing to destroy themselves over CO2, like the Netherlands attacking its own farmers, or the Swiss government threatening 3 years prison to anyone who heats their home over 60F this winter, but curiously at the same time no one is doing anything about the plastic pollution in the environment or the problem of the microplastic in our blood.

Along with the other issues you note, they are all a fixation of humans worrying about what to consume next.

If other animals could communicate they’ed probably be making a noise, but the strongest make the running as to what is next in line to be destroyed ~ for the good of humanity.

:om:

There are serious issues raised by Greenpeace and other NGOs, when it comes to the trade with these tickets.

Basically, cooperations can turn this system against itself, and buy credits to justify other horrible stuff somewhere else.

They outsource the environmental destruction, just as they outsource the labor force.

Speaking of which:
Why not cooperate with Fairphone?

Aka Fairbook :relaxed:

With a RISC-V maybe and OLED?
Coreboot?

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RISC-V is something like 4 generations behind ARM.
But soon Pine64 will have a single boad computer based on RISC-V and IMHO everyone should give that a try.
OLED uses PWM so it’s not eye-safe.

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OLED is the most eye safe to me, due to its pixels not actually sending light in my eyes when black, blue light being reduced and PWM is not OLED specific.

Some vendors do, some not and some do it on LCDs.

I actually find starring at my OLED screen on the Xperia 10 III much easier on the eyes as looking on any of the LCDs in house.

Much less eye fatigue.

https://www.oled-info.com/pulse-width-modulation-pwm-oled-displays

RISC is more 1 or 2 generations behind, and I am fine with that. There are already two or more SBCs available with a RISC V processor.

I am using it to develop on the chips, and particularly package for RISC V distros.

Coreboot could be considered standard anyways.
Thanks!

OLED/PWM are not inherently going to cause headaches and nausea. Claiming that all OLEDs are not eye-safe is ill-informed and fearmongering in my opinion. Only early/cheap implementations of OLEDs have PWM frequencies low enough to cause any concern.

If the PWM frequency is high enough, (in the 10s of kHz) there is absolutely no risk of getting eye-strain/headaches etc from the backlight flicker, as persistence of vision means the eyes/brain cannot percieve the difference between it and a constant light source.

Whereas there is some logic in such note that videos can have a frequency of 24Hz to 120Hz commonly and I don’t hear many people complaining about changing of light patterns, though you may see wheels spinning in the reverse direction.

A lot is down to having two interrupted light sources that create a modulated third wave which may be intrusive or annoying and hence unhealthy to submit long time to.

These frequencies can be low and hence no matter what individual frequency are there may still be an uncomfortable consequence.

People respond to different frequencies so it’s a little short sighted to say that there is absolutely no problem in any scenario.

So this is about Carbon Neutral ???

Whereas OLED may have some benefits I’m not sure there ia or will ever be and Carbon reduction in it’s production etc. to offset i against LED

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You make a very good point, there are other threads dedicated to OLED or Coreboot or whatever. This thread is about carbon neutrality. Everyone, let’s please stay on topic.

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