Brainstorm arguments that framework laptop will be successful in the market

I’m from batch 2. For me, it’s not ‘everything else’, it’s in combination of. I still expect reliability, like any other products.

The more time passes, the less of a value I get from this purchase…because the 11th gen mainboard is getting closer to the end of its useful life by the day, and reliability just isn’t there. …and where’s the CVE fixes on the security front? Increasingly frustrated.

Hi, A_Fan, does your laptop have some serious issue (ignoring the manufacturing imperfection) that prevents it to be your daily driver? I am really curious about the percentage of “serious issues (that affect reliability as daily driver)” for all existing batches. Is it small percentage or relatively large percentage? Is the quality improving? Do not know how to get a poll from the existing users. I am considering buy the new 12th gen version, but the more I read the forum, the more I feel I might better wait. What is your suggestion?

There are two timebomb issues, one has occurred a few times, one is likely a matter of time before I’ll come across it myself:

  1. Already occurred: Not reliably able to wake up from sleep (Ubuntu 22.04 LTS) after a lid-close → suspend / sleep.
  2. Yet to experience personally: Laptop doesn’t power up even when laptop battery is charged.

Other funky issues:

  1. [HIgh] Battery drain when USB-A and / or HDMI cards are plugged in, but not externally connected to any peripherals.
  2. USB flash storage / thumb drive randomly dropping connection in the middle of file transfer. Seems to be a thumb drive compatibility related matter, or voltage related thing during data transfer. (That’s why I’m waiting for TB4 certification…that would indicate compliance)
  3. Gen 1 lid / cover is flimsy,bouncy. Higher likelihood of having cracked display panel than Gen 2 lid (supposedly).
  4. Hinges…OMG, the hinges. And there’s no public acknowledgement that it’s an issue. At the very least I believe framework should acknowledge that the hinges stiffness has a wide variance range (that’s why some people have issues with them, some don’t).
  5. Security updates for the BIOS. Also waiting to see if there’s going to be a “Begin charging battery threshold” setting.
  6. Not getting 60w boost for the tau duration.

There’s also this (which Framework didn’t even respond to confirm nor deny):

…and this:

There seems to be a lack of resources on BIOS/Firmware/EC updates (whether it’s time, people, or skill…or a combination of that).

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These two are really serious problems. If your laptop is under warranty, did framework promise for a return or replace of the product? How is it resolved? Thanks.

I kept my last two ($300-$500) laptops from 2009-2016 and 2017-2021, so I’m laughing at the notion of this 11th generation Intel processor being anywhere near “end of its useful life.”

And for specifications similar to my Framework, I still see Dell and Lenovo and Microsoft and Apple machines costing 30% to 100% more, so I don’t see how the value is declining.

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I’m hoping that this is the case, and mass adoption isn’t necessary for Framework’s survival. There’s no shame in operating as a boutique business serving a niche market of people who like to build and take apart their machines and run Linux.

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It’s not ‘near’ the end of its useful life…but it’s always on an ‘approaching’ trajectory (our motion of time is one way, getting closer by the day). Value is always declining… In the Framework Laptops case (to me)…it’s declining without even being my daily driver…making it relatively more expensive than it otherwise would have been for any given task.

Agreed I and I think many others here give the laptop more leniency on issues that would likely never have been accepted from another company.

I want them to succeed I want them do well but I also feel your frustration and want a laptop that is a good laptop!

True they need only serve the customers that want what they are offering. I stopped recommend it to the average person after getting mine.

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I first heard about Framework on Hacker News, so from the beginning I didn’t expect this to be something for the average person, and it has nothing to do with quality. Being able to repair and upgrade the machine is something that the average person might like in theory, but the average person has no interest in looking at individual component specifications, and certainly no interest in physically handling the components to swap them. They need to be able to drop it off at the local Best Buy, Microsoft, or Apple store where someone will just do it for them. I got a Framework for my wife, but she’ll just hand it to me if anything seems off, and I do the BIOS and driver updates for her. I’m glad that my car is repairable, but it’s an appliance to me, and I have no interest in doing any mechanical maintenance or repairs myself.

I don’t recommend Linux desktop distros to the average person for the same reason. In the hands of someone who’s curious and wants to learn, Linux is powerful and fun. But the average person really needs something that’s sealed up like Windows S mode, MacOS, or ChromeOS (or increasingly just iOS or Android) so that they can’t screw it up, or they can bring it to the Microsoft or Apple store to unscrew it.

Maybe the best hope of wider adoption for Framework would be some kind of advertised affiliate program for small, independent “computer repair” shops around the world, so people would feel comfortable knowing where they can take it for repairs and upgrades.

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I highly disagree with this statement. OS’s do not need to be closed up, sealed off, proprietary black boxes for most people. In high security corporate, military, and maybe government environs you could argue for that, but I would still see it as a false sense of security vs open source. For everyone else, running back from the bleeding edge on stable / LTS editions of open source software is just fine. Case in point: I helped my 70+ year old mother switch to Ubuntu about 4 years ago, and I don’t think she’s booted to Winblows since. Now she’s confident enough in the software to run the semi annual version upgrades without me being there just in case something goes wrong. She even convinced her 80 year old friend to switch.

Software being open means it’s easier to understand, yes easier to tinker with and break (but most people don’t do so), easier to fix (even if that specific user won’t fix it themselves). A cottage industry of Linux friendly repair and upgrade shops would be a boon for everyone, and provide some downward competitive pressure on the ridiculous prices BB and crApple charge for repairs and upgrades.

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Like @D.H I disagree but I think I understand what you are getting at.

To me is like the misunderstanding with right to repair, the misconception that it solely means end users are to be empowered to make there own repairs.

RTR is about both removing the monopoly on repair options so end users, 3rd parties and 1st parties can repair while also making devices that are repairable. This encourages price competition for repairs and extends life of devices. Take a look at what John Deere and Apple do with their control of parts and repairs. What happens when the manufactures no longer supports a device and you have nowhere else to go?

IMO what the average user needs is something that just works well/as expected and that if/when they break something they can get it fixed without loosing their data at a competitive price rather than costing in the realms of a new device. FW laptop is very modular and thus very repairable. If the laptop worked just the same as a “sealed laptop” then even if you personally never intend to try and repair it is a better choice.

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Okay. I hear all this talk about the Framework only appealing to innovators or tech-type people. That, I’m sure is one group. But I’m here to tell you that I’m 66 years old and not a tech wizard. I got the DIY. My grandson and I put it together. I installed LM Cinnamon Edge as reccomended on this forum. I may not be th he average consumer, but I’m a long ways from being part of a specialized group. I can’t say enough about the well written and comprehensive help links, as well as the support from this group. Framework: keep doing what you’re doing. It’s working!

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I didn’t mean to conflate open source vs. right-to-repair vs. “just works” with my comment about regular people needing an operating system (not a whole laptop) that’s “sealed up.”

One way of making sure that things “just work” (which probably best fits the sentiment that I was trying to express for the average person) is to configure things to work (out-of-the-box and through automatic updates) and then reduce the end-user’s ability to mess with that configuration, intentionally or not. And I think this is fundamentally at odds with how desktop Linux distros give us more control and choices regarding what we install or update, and when, and from where. Do you want to be on the unstable, testing, or stable branch? Do you want an LTS or stable or release candidate kernel? Free or non-free drivers? Which type of file system and bootloader? What about partitions and disk encryption? Which desktop environment? Do you want to build packages from the AUR or use backports or stick with the default repositories? Maybe you can avoid some of these choices for a while, but then your employer or school wants you to install Teams or a particular VPN client, and they only have instructions for Windows and macOS…

I recently put a Manjaro sticker on my laptop, and my wife asked about it. I said it was my operating system, and she said, “I thought you used Linux.” I got two sentences into an explanation of Linux distros before I saw that she had lost interest in the topic. For her, it doesn’t “just work” if she needs to understand and choose between distros, nevermind the rest of it.

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I realise why you’re drawing the comparisons here however you seemed to actually indicated the value and interest to the average user this laptop brings.

On this we agree but I suggest you can have both options and “just works” coexisting

I think the trick is to have good defaults/standard behaviour or perhaps a basic and an advanced view like can be seen with VLC media player settings so the “average”/most frequently needed things are in plain view and more advanced potentially dangerous things more hidden/require password confirmation. This is why Apple’s Mac OS/ iOS do well, basic functionality and clear visual design and hidden ways of getting what more advanced users want done, maybe not iOS on that one.

Regarding Linux, it isn’t mainstream but is way more new user friendly with flatpaks and the more mainstream app populating the distros “App Stores” you may never really need the terminal. A lot is done with web browsers now anyway and with the Steam deck using Linux as well I can see a lot more accessibility happening in the coming years.

XD

I agree with this notion. My kitchen range / stove “just works” …and it’s repairable…just that I don’t wan to deal with the repairing if needed.

Any [good] solution should ‘just work’… (assuming user orientation and training pre-requitsites are met).

Off-topic:
Something else “just works”…and doesn’t even need repairing that we know of: The laws of our construct (regardless of whether we understand the science of them, or not).

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So the difference between my car and my Framework laptop (and Linux, which is why I brought it up) is that I can take my car to an official dealership or one of many independent shops in town if I don’t want to do the maintenance and repairs myself. There’s no place, official or unofficial, in town to bring my Framework if I want someone to install the new lid or hinges for me (or figure out how to get Teams working in Manjaro). There are resources and a supportive community on the web, of course, but I’ll still have to learn and do it myself. That’s fine with me, but that’s why I wouldn’t yet recommend it to the average person.

Absolutely. I first tried putting Linux on a laptop in 2005. Compared to the experience back then, today’s Fedora, Ubuntu, Mint, Manjaro, etc. are shockingly smooth. And I’ve said the same thing about modern web apps making the choice of operating system less relevant.

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I don’t see why you couldn’t take the FW laptop to any independent repair shop? I think they would likely be delighted at how easy their job would be! Failing that if you know a techie the modular repairs are so easy they would surely be able to help for the cost of a beer or whatever.

Sure there currently is no first party option that I am aware of but no customer is out of warranty yet! :slight_smile:

In time all the parts will be more widely available as well as the full schematics so I’m scratching my head to understand why you say you could not get it fixed locally?

As for Teams on Manjaro, desktop Linux is still a niche fragmented mostly enthusiast OS and so less well supported and documented.
The FW laptop is a laptop that has greater than normal support for Linux OS but is not sold with it so I don’t think it makes sense to bring that up as a comparison, I mean FW ≠ Linux.

Mainly I am/was thinking that there just aren’t many independent computer repair shops anymore, having been knocked out of business by the Geek Squad and Apple and the general model of disposable consumer electronics.

Looking now on Google Maps around the different places where I’ve lived, I’m surprised to actually see a number of shops still in existence, so you might be right on this point after all. :slightly_smiling_face:

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That’s is good to hear!

On your point about getting it repaired however I just saw Water Damage - repair shop recommendation? - #10 by IndependentGeorge a water damaged mainboard repair at a 3rd party shop declared not fixable without the full schematics being available.

I think Biggest obstacle for greater success are Availability outside EU and america and second problem is lack of options. There is only one type(intel) of framework laptop and its probably only available in America and EU. I am Indian and wanting to buy laptop since 2 years but I am waiting just so that I could buy a Framework laptops but my second highest concern is lack of options. I am a gamer so I want a budget gaming(kinda) laptop. I hope they launch a AMD apu based varient and also a 2in1 and expand in Asia too. I have already waited more than 1year and ready to wait until 2023.