The hack happened because the motherboards were diverted to a PLA-controlled factory, which implanted the spy chips there. If the US-made motherboards stay on this continent, the PLA won’t be able to touch them. It is true we cannot trust the CIA and NSA, as the “deep dive 1 and 2” revelations of the past few days show, but they can influence Intel and AMD to implant inside the SoC, so their reach is unavoidable unless you are willing to do your computing with recycled 486 chips.
You can’t achieve zero spying. But reducing the spying from 2 governments to 1 is a big improvement. You’d have to have blinders on to not see that.
It really isn’t, what makes you think that China can’t exploit the same backdoors that the NSA or CIA use? Secondly
I don’t mean this unkindly but that is just naïve thinking, if a nation-state wants your data, they will get it, one way or another
I support free firmware, it is my featured topic after all but I support it as a matter of principle rather than out of belief that this will immunize me from all forms of spying everywhere. Let me ask you something, what extensions do you currently have installed on your browser? Which browser? What software do you commonly use?
So you’re saying it could indeed be sent to a factory where the PLA makes sure that spy chips are installed? If so, why manufacture in China? Manufacturing in a better country like Taiwan might protect customers more.
Because the NSA and CIA can force Intel to put those backdoors in the Intel ME (mismanagement engine) and AMD’s equivalent in such a way that a certificate and hard coded IP addresses block foreign governments from using the same backdoor even with decades of brute forcing attempts.
Making obvious statements doesn’t strengthen your argument. Acting condescending doesn’t prove you have any knowledge. Fewer governments spying is better. And not all governments are the same. The USA has a commitment to freedom, whereas China is a Stalinist government whose leader is a fascist. I suggest your attitude arises from a genuine dislike of the US government.
Framework does actually manufacture in Taiwan. Taipei specifically I believe (based on their job listings).
And as for board schematics, I know that Louis Rossmann talked about how he has been told the reason why they can’t share them publicly and that he doesn’t blame Framework for it in his video here
I’m committed to a rigorous but respectful discussion
I have no intent to come across as condescending. Direct and challenging yes but not disrespectful. Please quote the areas that come across this way and I will edit them accordingly
CA’s can be hacked and certificates faked, IP addresses can be spoofed. The only way to guarantee that back doors won’t be exploited is to not have them at all. The fact that the HAP bit exists is proof of at least one back door within the Management Engine which gives credence to the theory that their are more.
I will reiterate, if a nation-state turns it’s baleful eye towards your data and turns you into a target, your goose is cooked.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers, I am certain there are more technically minded people both in this thread and on this forum that know more than I. My knowledge comes from following these subjects for the better part of a decade but it is all high-level knowledge that comes from reading news articles, nothing more than anyone else could gather with sufficient interest.
You and I support the same objective, just different reasoning as to why it is good. I want to establish root of trust to prevent whole-sale collection of data and protect against malware from criminals that don’t have the sophisticated resources of a nation at their disposal. That is an achievable objective.
Debatable as to the first statement, we Americans have a long tradition of denying freedoms to those who deserve them, especially our own citizens. It would be more accurate to say that I don’t trust my government. I can’t say that would prefer living in China or even Europe, especially France.
Consider me the devils advocate in this discussion.
@Zack regarding the earlier point that Framework uses a custom design
I don’t think they own the manufacturing plants, rather, they either created their own design in-house and contracted manufacturing out or contracted a manufacturer to create them a custom design
If I had to guess it’s the second situation because of the NDA’s and issues releasing source
I was just contending that Framework doesn’t use a rebadged Clevo design or other “copy and pasted” design as you put it
Although, I think a partnership with System76 would be a boon to both companies
System76 is tooling up to be their own manufacturer and Framework has a design that System76 might be interested in licensing
System76 is also a Linux-driven company whereas Framework is not
This seems like a good way to kill 2 birds with one stone
System76 can drive software innovation forward and Framework the hardware
This plays to each companies strengths and reduces support requirements
Manufacturing in China has always had a Shanzhai aspect meaning people share designs with their relatives who own factories or work at other factories. There’s frequently copying because there’s no concept of IP.
Yes but the people who do that are often acting illegally, or else the laws that allowed it are un-Constitutional. That’s a far cry from a country that accidentally starved 45 million people to death and engages in organ harvesting of dissidents.
No, it does matter. China will kill you and sell your organs if you have the wrong ideas. Freedom, which is a central concept of the Framework laptop, is opposed by China. You’d be a fool to trust their mafia-style government. Lots of Westerners are languishing in Chinese prisons today, experiencing worse outcomes than Julian Assange, because they did trust China.
Personal account of surviving a Chinese prison, when a foreigner dared to make a profit in China:
As for products, you can control the manufacturing process and gain some trust if you have people on the ground. It sounds like Framework doesn’t. They don’t know where the boards are really made.
Sometimes it is, generally I’d say local government is pretty clean. It’s when voters become a statistic instead of “Fred” the guy that lives down the block from me, that politics becomes problematic. imho amyways
You’re making a common mistake that Scott Adams points out in his book Loserthink, which is that you’re assuming you can read my mind. You can’t. I did understand what he said. Your homework assignment is to read that book.
My point is that thugs-with-resources are not all the same. Just ask any foreign athlete suffering in the dystopian nightmare of the Beijing Olympics right now.
In addition, such thugs have budgets to think about, and one can always play a better game of defense as Apple has done. However by using Intel chips Framework isn’t helping its customers do so.
Maybe you should know. Apple seems to have managed it. However if Taiwan gets invaded (as Poland was invaded by the Germans) we can kiss the Secure Enclave goodbye.
