Interesting discussion, I am happy that we have the opportunity to have it.
My first real job, in 1986, the computer was an IBM 286 AT of some sort, I much enjoyed its firm and heavy keyboard.
Later on, I had NorthGate keyboards.
I guess I am just a fan of such a feel.
I actually don’t have a problem with the keyboard on the 11th Gen, batch 1 Framework 13in that I purchased. I find it perfectly useful. There are some times when I do a stretch of numeric data entry, and for that, I prefer a numeric keypad on the keyboard. Yes, I have tried separate keypads, but then, I just put them away, somehow, just not satisfactory.
I’ve heard of those butterfly keyboards, and when my daughter wanted a MacBook in 2020, I tried to research whether the MacBook Air she ended up with had one, as best I could tell, it doesn’t. She is happy with her device, so I am also.
If you get a chance, try Cherry Brown and Gateron Pro Brown switches – they’re non-linear, but not clicky, and pretty light. With enough use to develop muscle memory, I’ve found I don’t bottom out the keys that much, at least not with much force, when typing, as the tactile bump is close to the actuation point of the key.
Most keyboards give me some mild joint pain in my index fingers. I’ve had the best luck with the Gateron Pro Brown switches on this Keychron K2, second best with Cherry Brown switches on an older similar keyboard, forget the brand name.
the standard cherry pattern switches don’t lend themselves to low profile or lower key pitch, though. and while i haven’t tried gateron pro i have encountered cherry brown and still found it more uncomfortable than high quality scissor switches.
my current “best” for actuation feel is the typematrix someone ended up with by accident and went “do you want to try it?” so I did, and to my surprise it is the least straining keyboard i’ve used… the layout is weird, and the key pitch is still larger than i want, and obviously it lacks a numpad( i have an external attached which sucks but at least works) but the switches are good. second after that is the ancient (found a word between vintage and archaic, go me) macbook pro. which also obviously lacks a numpad and cannot easily have one attached
i’ve stared contemplatively at choc spacing, though… but i’m utterly unprepared to design my own keyboard, and nobody as far as i can tell makes full keyboards out of those kailh choc switches. they always appear to be utterly minimalistic. frustrating. (plus i haven’t been in a position to see how the switches feel without either buying a keyboard i absolutely cannot use due to missing half the keys or somehow arranging for one to be made)
so honestly, what i probably really want is effectively a good full laptop keyboard with 18mm pitch keys. i’ve only encountered mediocre 18mm pitch keyboards for the last fifteen years, though. (laptop or otherwise)
Speaking of “choc” switches, perhaps you will be suited by the MNT Reform laptop? The keyboard uses this type and can be popped out and installed into its own chassis to provide a more ergonomic typing experience. The laptop is however a very uncompromising design for those who value repairability and privacy. We do have a staunch advocate of the Reform here in this Forum with @2disbetter who will probably better champion its design than I can. Perhaps MNT will leverage its undisputed success with the Reform to design a more rounded laptop in future, one that competes more squarely with Framework?
I myself am interested in the MNT Reform, particularly the Pocket Reform, it is ARM based and the Reform documentation page lists lots of interesting operating systems like Genode, Plan 9 (9front), and OpenBSD but not, ironically considering its the one I want, Haiku.
while that is helpfully a full keyboard as far as actual key presence, this makes no mention of key pitch/spacing anywhere that i can find, so i’m forced to assume it’s the standard 19.some mm.
when i mentioned ‘choc spacing’, it’s a specific referrent i came across in research earlier this year, for a specific subset of the mechanical keyboard hobbyist community focusing on an 18mm x 17mm key pitch layout commonly found with specific kailh choc switches and appropriately sized keycaps. but all the people building keyboards for that specific substandard are trying to make keyboards with as few keys as possible (with definitions for ‘as few as possible’ varying, but generally vastly fewer than i actuallyw ant). there’s also minimal interest in low profile designs there, for some reason.
I like the Reform and I ordered a Pocket Reform as well, but this is more because I really liked the design of the products versus seeing a real need for either. The Pocket Reform has a real need for me, but my own efforts on a Framework Mainboard project are going to make that perhaps moot.
That said, in the beginning I used to wonder WHY Framework went the thin and light route. I used to think that doing so was contrary to their goals of making things last and be durable. There is no question that a thicker case would be more durable, but I think that many on this forum have demonstrated just how durable the design really is.
On the other hand, the reasons for the way things are designed are very well researched. There are reasons for everything that Framework does from a design and engineering standpoint. The sheer complexity of their design here is a huge risk for Framework. The more points of failure there are the more issues you will have, and the costs of those issues are really incalculable. SO all the good ideas in the world have to be tempered by whether the risk is worth it or the consequences of that risk can be mitigated or weathered.
Trying to understand WHY options x wasn’t done is important to really understanding products from Framework.
The Framework 16 is a laptop that is modular like a desktop. It has been engineered and designed to be exactly what it is. What I think you really want is for someone to take the mainboard and make the perfect enclosure you are looking for. Framework’s design and ethos make that totally possible.
I am working on my own pocket computer thanks to this very thing.
Vintage can also be synonym for the year that something was produced, in addition to the definition that you are flinching at. Traditionally used to refer to wine, but it’s slipping out into more common usage nowadays here in the UK.
That’s the way I understood the original post. Likely not immediately obvious if English isn’t your first language.
It hadn’t occurred to me that anyone would prefer a lower-profile switch, or even tighter key spacing. Somewhere in the back of my head, I assumed those were always compromises owing to space constraints.
I don’t think many people are looking for 104-key layouts these days. I’ve given up on finding even the 75%~ layout I want… good luck to you.
most of my hand damage is related to straining to using keyboards slightly too big. i know there are other people out there with smaller hands, and in japan and some european nations, key pitch is frequently listed in the tech specs. but no, here in murica, everyone has original gen 1 xbox sized hands. or … something.
i don’t strictly need a 104-key layout exactly, i’d be happy enough with something similar to the layout we can get on the fw16 (with numpad), as long as, well, it was sized appropriately. (obviously i’ll be living with the fw16 keyboard for a while regardless, since a custom keyboard won’t magically appear. and if a custom keyboard is happening, well, i obviously wouldn’t MIND more keys…)
it’s just, weirdly, the people making things in the spacing i want all seem to restrict it to barely more than alphanumeric. i don’t understand that.
I imagine you already aware of, and tried, using “sticky” modifiers to avoid having to spread the fingers when using Shift, Ctrl, etc? It is available in the Apple accessibility settings, so probably other OS too. Also can be programmed via keyboard firmware such as Kaleidoscope.
I agree that this would not be a substitute for keyboards the correct size. Equipment such as bicycles are available in different sizes to fit almost all customers, including crank lengths and handlebar width, and we should expect office equipment to be the same.
It’s all speculation, but I bet the majority of people who go for smaller key sizes are aiming for compactness for aesthetics rather than ergonomics, and they’re probably already a tiny subset of computer users. I bet the ergonomics-interested subset hasn’t intersected with the aesthetics-oriented hobbyist subset too much. A lot of them seem to talk about keyboard switch noises, as far as I can tell, because that’s communicable with a close mic in YouTube videos, whereas feel isn’t so much. The hobby-associated media is only capable of incentivizing looks and sounds, I mean. It’s a pet theory.
Might just be raw population numbers, too, on the broader keyboard market side of things. I feel like I’ve got small hands relative to most people, and standard keyboard widths and heights are no problem for me, while smaller keyboards are are an affront to muscle memory.
I feel you though: I do tend to have a lot of hand and arm movement while typing and it’d be really uncomfortable if I didn’t. The usual Alt key placement is the reason I declined to ever use emacs. (I’d be curious to watch an emacs user’s thumb joints, honestly… speaking of niches.)
For myself, a 10-keyless is good, although a number row along the top would be ideal. However, I’ve started using the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard v2 with the mod/fn layers for things like arrow and page up/down/home/end/etc keys, so being able to program in similar types of layers/combos could very much work for me, without needing those specific keys on a keyboard.
No, it would not be sick so much as thicc. The ULP is a very different beast, see link in first post. Also why I was reticent to use the term “mechanical” to describe using discrete switches.
