This is why:
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Very interesting topic! I ordered my FW 16 without the power adapter so I’m trying to figure out which one to buy myself.
I have some questions:
- Is a PD 3.1 charger required or is PD 3.0 or some lesser standard ok?
- Will the FW 180w charger be available for individual sale on the marketplace any time soon?
- What happens if I use a 60w or 75w AC adapter (I see that 100w minimum is recommended)?
a. Does it throttle the CPU or battery charging?
b. Does it pull power from the battery if the AC adapter isn’t supplying enough wattage?
Thanks for your amazing work!
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No PD 3.1 requirement.
In fact with the Framework 13 the laptop was designed to be highly versatile and able to use pretty much any USB power source (even 5w, although it wasn’t recommended), afaik the Framework 16 should be the same way.
My guess is that it will be put on the marketplace around the same time that Framework 16 laptops start shipping, so Q4.
Regardless of the power brick size the power will first go to the CPU/GPU and any extra power will go to battery charging. If the CPU/GPU are drawing more power than the AC adapter supplies then yes it will pull power from the battery.
The battery can be charged at up to ~85-90w, so a lower power brick will reduce charging speed.
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Well, Lenovo have done this. On my “old” ThinkPad E560, when using the discrete GPU and the CPU at their maximum performances simultaneously, the computer drew energy from the battery. When I removed the battery, I got performances drop because the power adapter alone couldn’t keep the pace. Worse, I think that the computer wasn’t able to use a more powerful adapter, unlike the FW16.
And it was overheating and throttling, on top of that, so I had to buy an air extractor to maintain good performances.
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I would suggest at minimum a 100W PD3.0 USB C adapter (and certified 100W+ cable) if you plan to use the laptop and want to top off the battery while charging. You can also use a lower wattage power adapter, just note the motherboard may dial back performance to compensate for the lower wattage adapter and/or your battery might not charge while the laptop is in use. However, you can definitely use a lower wattage adapter for overnight charging while the laptop is powered off or in sleep. The battery will charge with a lower wattage adapter, it will just take longer to charge to full.
If you want the full potential of the laptop, no throttling due to power supply restrictions, and you want the battery to charge, etc. then get a USB C PD3.1 180W or higher adapter and certified 240W cable. The most common PD3.1 adapters I see are 140W which means they support only 28V EPR (Extended power range). You’ll want to look for a PD3.1 180W adapter which supports 36V EPR. These adapters are typically more expensive (for now). Framework charging US$79 for their PD3.1 180W adapter is quite frankly a bargain. Look at comparable 180W PD3.1 adapters and you’ll see what I’m talking about. When shopping keep in mind that the adapter needs to be able to supply 180W to one USB C port and be PD3.1 compliant for that port (which means it supports 36V unless the vendor is dishonest). Some on the market advertise higher wattages, but many are limited to 100W per port and few can do PD3.1 140W to one port but only support 28V. Again, keeping life simple and ordering the Framework $79 adapter makes good sense for most users.
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The recommended Wattage should depend on your configuration. IIRC the GPU module has a TDP of 100W. The CPU alone 45W TDP. For the FW13 (TDP 25W) the recommended power supply is 65W+, so I would suppose 100W being enough in the CPU only unease.
Since Framework only give a single recommendation for power supply (they don’t distinguish between with or without power hungry GPU), I think it’s the recommendation with GPU, so 100W would be fine in CPU only scenarios.
The max charging current for the battery seems to be 85W. If you want to change at full speed, while you are using the FW16, you need more than 100W power supply.
TDP = Thermal design profile. This is a crude method to determine power consumption, and not accurate. Further, when discussing wattage, the voltage is important. I believe the 13th Gen VCore is about 1.5Vdc.
The input power supply supplies voltages starting at 3.3V. Also, 5V, 9V, 12V, 15V, 20V… PD3.1 also offers 28V, 36V and 48V. Framework is using up to 36Vdc EPR with PD3.1. Anyway, without knowing how Framework is doing voltage conversion, using this type of measurement won’t work. Plus there’s other devices using power, such as the glue logic on the motherboard, Audio board, Wifi, LCD, SSD, RAM, Touchpad, Keyboard… Then there’s loss due to power supply inefficiency and loss through voltage conversion.
I believe Framework is calling for a 100W PD3.0 power supply, when not using the GPU slot. If using the GPU slot a PD3.1 180W or 240W power supply may be required.
Again, the $79 Framework power supply is a bargain given its 180W PD3.1 output.
Both my wife and I had Dell laptops with matching docking stations as work supplied machines. The laptop was supplied with a smallish power supply, and the docking station was supplied with a higher capacity PS. In both cases IT provided the laptop, docking station and laptop PS to our desks. When attempting to power the laptop+docking station with this PS everything just refused to power up. It could recognise the PS capacity as Dell use a third pin in the barrel connector to communicate with a Dallas 1-wire device in the power supply which is programmed with info about the PS capacity. IT had to provide us both with the docking station PS as well, instead of squirreling it away in their spares.
Another thing to bear in mind is that a 240W PS is a quarter more power capacity than the 180W PS, so the size of the box is going to grow - I would suggest that it would be the same footprint but about a half as thick again (with corresponding extra weight from the magnetics involved). So it seems to me that Framework have made a pretty good compromise in the PS they are offering as it will suit 95% of people, even if they are using the additional GPU module, and the other 5% can upgrade at a later stage by getting a 240W and on-selling the now un-needed 180W.
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A third more.
Or, 180W is a quarter less than 240W.
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Duh, of course …
But that makes my suggestion of the extra size and weight even more likely.
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What USB PD 3.1 Controller is being used on the Laptop? The Texas Instruments TPS65994AD was used on Intel and AMD’s Reference Design for PC and notebook end equipment for USB PD 3.0. I am wondering what controller you are using to allow for 240W USB PD 3.1?
How many USB-C extra ports does this 180W power adapter have? E.g. can I charge my laptop and Nintendo Switch at the same time without needing to use one of the USB-C ports on my laptop? There is only the one power adapter picture, so it is not immediately obvious what all the ports are.
I would only expect it to have the single port to charge your laptop. They would have mentioned if it had multiple ports. Keep in mind that this will be one of the first 180W PD power adapters available.
Be aware that computer USB ports are not meant to be a high wattage power supply. A Switch will only charge slowly, if it charges at all. They normally want 15V/2.6A.
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It has a single USB-c port per the product listing.
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Will this power supply actually provide
3.3V, 5V, 9V, 12V, 15V, 20V, 28V, 36V and 48V, so I can truly use it with all my 3rd-party devices? I have an HP Zbook Studio G8 from work that apparently only accepts 45W, 60W, and 90W. I have three USB-C power adapters and none are actually accepted for charging the laptop for some reason, but I’m hoping the FW16 charger does work.
And will the FW16 accept power at all those voltage levels? I would love if it accepted power from my three existing chargers. One maxes out at 15W (9V@1.67 A), one at 25W (11V@2.25A), and one at 65W (I can’t find voltage/current for that in the spec sheets unfortunately). I know the FW16 will lose battery while running with the low-wattage phone chargers, but sometimes it’s enough to charge laptop slowly overnight and just use it lightly for an hour or two during the day. And when traveling, I have forgetten my laptop charger but have never forgotten my phone charger.
I assumed all USB-C PD would work with each other, but I am not seeing supported voltage/amps specifications on the FW13 charger or the FW16 charger product pages which makes me concerned they might not support everything.
Voltage as low as 3.3v is only found on power supplies with PPS, which allow fine adjustment of their voltage. Below 5v are not something devices normally require, it’s just an added feature, mostly to reduce heat when the device is charging a 1S li-ion. Laptops don’t use 1S li-ions. 12v was dropped as a standard voltage on the Power Delivery spec. It’s now optional. 48v is just not needed on a 180W power supply.
That leaves 5v, 9v, 15v, 20v, 28v, 36v. This would be normal for it to do. They might throw in 12v too.
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It definitely supports 5V, 9V, 15V, 20V, 28V, 36V, and AVS (AVS is adjustable voltage anywhere within the range 15v to the maximum voltage of the power supply, 36v in this case). 5A is supported at 20v and above (and 15v and above with AVS).
3.3V, 12V, 48V and PPS (adjustable voltage from 3.3-21v, basically the lower voltage version of AVS) are all not supported.
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I believe you but… How do you know? Does Framework officially say this anywhere? Are they not saying because it’s subject to change?
He’s in FW16 batch 1. So probably read it right off the adapter.
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The charging brick has a label on it detailing exactly what it supports. I read the label and mostly remember it (I don’t remember if 12V is supported, but I can check when I get home).
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