How long do you need it to last in order to not cancel?
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Like three years. I do not stay in one place.
So swap out and swap back in, two connect and disconnects per day for 3 years? Over 4300 cycles. If you expect an internal connector to preform flawlessly after that, then yea, you should cancel.
On the PCB side it seems to be just gold-plated copper pads. The lever springs on the cable side will be dragged across a tiny spot each time it’s screwed down or released & these are high speed PCIe signals, not a protocol like USB meant to handle contact wear. Maybe it will surprise us, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
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It certainly would be most days and will go past 50 in a blink of an eye. I will consider a new rig and an additional laptop, even if that is also an inconvenience. Maybe I will just fork out on a 14-16 inch razer.
I don’t think anyone saw @sciencewhiz answer to this “50 swaps”, so I’m going to clarify his answer.
This link, Expansion Bay connector durability - #30
was answered by Framework.
From what they said, it seems that the connector is rated pretty low on paper, but the testing they did demonstrated that it passed 2000 cycles.
I believe you misread or misunderstood.
They did not say that they tested this connector, the expansion bay connector, and it passed 2000 cycles. That was a pogo pin connector, a different type of connector. It was just an example of how there may not always be extensive testing behind a cycle count on a datasheet. Framework might ask for the expansion bay connector to be tested to higher cycles, but they haven’t said they’ve done that yet. I do think they very likely will ask for more testing, but we’ll have to wait & see.
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Isn’t an eGPU a much better solution for this? If you are going to switch so often, just get an eGPU, it uses an interface that is actually made for wear.
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Is there eGPU with GPU that is comparable to what FW16 offers and is at a similar price point? I think the eGPU enclosure can easily pass the whole price of the expansion bay card ($400).
I reread that again like 10 times before I finally saw…
- The cycle life in datasheets is rarely comprehensive. We’ve had instances where the datasheet on a connector (I think it was a pogo connector) said 100 cycles, and we asked the supplier to retest to 2000 cycles and found the connector passed that too.
Thank you for pointing out my 2 monkey brain cells.
I’m hoping their semi-custom connector will be hot-swappable, but wouldn’t hold on to it.
Depends on the enclosure probably, I got mine (Razor X Core) for $250 new. My eGPU also did cost $270, so I paid around $520 for both things but I can plug that in into my wifes laptop as well.
If the durability of the connector is of concern you should consider that you probably will be able to order a replacement if it breaks. And it appears to me that 50 is a very conservative estimation and is has been mentioned by @nrp in a different thread that the actual durability is much higher, like 1000+.
I will think about it, I have no need to cancel at this moment as shipping will be months away. 0.4kg probably is not a deal breaker anyway, besides neuro may very well be correct in suggesting it is conservative number.
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What is the downside of getting an eGPU here?
It’s faster to switch, it doesn’t wear out as much, you can even plug in other GPUs (upgrade) and use it on other laptops/computers.
Definitely will not be hotswap
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You can’t replace the part which should see the most wear. Half of the connector is literally part of the motherboard PCB and the GPU PCB. On that side, all the datasheets and pictures just show the contacts being gold-plated copper pads which are part of the structure of the PCB, in no way replaceable.
I do think Framework will probably find that the true durability is better than initially stated in the datasheet. But I wouldn’t bet on it being good enough to tolerate everyday swapping for years without issue.
If one accepts that this is mainly for upgrade and infrequent changes, then there is no issue. Remember that removing the expansion bay requires removing the keyboard & other input modules, removing several screws and dealing with what could be a slightly fiddly connector cable within the laptop. This isn’t a pop off / pop on procedure. I would think this would natural limit all but the most stubborn people.
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The connector quoted with a better-than-expected durability is not the Framework Expansion Bay Module connector, which is still rated for just 50 cycles.
Most eGPUs are heavily bottlenecked by Thunderbolt 3/4 and USB4’s PCIe 3.0 x4 tunneling, which is a far cry from the Expansion Bay Module’s PCIe 4.0 x8 connection (16x the bandwidth).
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I wonder if the dGPU can be disabled in BIOS or something. Leave it in but save power. Or was weight the concern, @Random_Matt ?
Back on the performance topic, hoping to see higher end dGPU modules. But AMD haven’t even released the full desktop 7800 yet, so fully braced for a pretty basic GPU over the next couple years. Will give me a great reason to upgrade that bit later!
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Weight. 0.4kg is not really a game changer though to be honest.
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I was wondering if it was possible to add solder to the pads on the GPU side to increase their resilience to wear. Wouldn’t touch the motherboard side and just keep that connected, but a test on an empty shell might be worth it. Would be difficult to get flat but sounds like an idea.
For anyone interest, perhaps the GPU module top layer will be the same as this SSD expansion test, which is 1.5mil (not sure how to interpret that though):
Yeah I will likely also only buy a dGPU module later. The verge video did mention it was only about 2x the performance of the iGPU which is just… not enough to justify it IMO. But most importantly there has not been enough information by Framework about it yet:
- How does switching between iGPU and eGPU look like (also please on linux, hopefully without rebooting), and how low-power can you get the eGPU when not in use?
- How is the relative performance compared to both the low and high-end iGPUs? Either internal or better external benchmarks would be great - I know it’s early but I also can’t be expected to make a decision based on nothing
- More info on the USB-C port on the GPU module - does it support MST for multiple displays? Why did you not just put full size DP and HDMIs on the module - I feel like the fixation on USB-C here is quite limiting, especially since you’re already not passing a video output through to the expansion cards, so an external dongle is a requirement.
I do have hopes of being able to play some light VR on the FW16 in the future (so I don’t have to buy a completely new PC ontop of this expensive laptop), but I don’t think this is it yet. I feel the first generation of GPU is not quite living up to the potential of the module bay.
Also note even though I talk VR and faster GPU, I would not buy a Nvidia GPU bc of linux support (though VR is likely to happen in Windows), so I realize I might just have to wait out a potential nvidia release before a more powerful AMD option could release…
Anyway, I’ll have to wait for reviews for real world performance and then decide - no Starfield:(
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