I was part of batch 6 and used ShippingCart to forward it here in the Philippines, no additional taxes / payments and they do door to door shipping since they are owned by LBC. 
Hopefully you enjoy your Framework!
1 Like
Just want to ask since where I live Framework doesnt have an established community yet (Czech Republic) we are on the borders with Germany and thus shipping should not be an issue logistically. But I could see some problems regarding the currency we use (CZK), with the VAT and with the weird (QWERTZ) keyboard layout (not a dealbreaker for me personally, but for many here it can be).
So I want to ask regarding an estimate for orders as far as countries such as mine go. Worst case freight forwarding from Germany should not be an issue for me since I literally could drive there myself in a couple hours, but I would prefer to order directly if at all possible. But my patience is kind of running short and from past experiences many products that make it into Germany dont make it here. But Im hopeful my country is close on the list, since otherwise Id likely freight forward from Germany.
Best regards Framework team, you guys do an excellent job with everything so far.
2 Likes
EU customers beware, including supported countries. If you move, they’ll try and (illegally) dodge support.
Customer service cancelled my order against my will because I was asking too many questions about EU warranties—as I move around in the EU quite a bit. I asked if they could send to Italy, they said no, so I was okay with that. However, the shipping address was in Germany and I could have also provided one in Ireland.
I don’t think customer service is informed about EU consumer rights. When asked in depth, the agent clearly didn’t like being asked about the details and decided to cancel my order by force as a punishment for asking. The conversation was simply long, not rude or disrespectful.
If they couldn’t provide more information, they could have simply stated so and asked if I wanted to continue with the order or not. Instead they forcefully cancelled.
It is hypocritical to write about bad customer experience in unsupported countries, then cancel an order to a supported one simply for asking information.
3 Likes
Hello @RPS,
This is not a valid representation of your conversation with us in Support and we stand firm on the cancelation of your order. Your citing of EU laws and warranties do not apply to this specific instance and we provided all the relevant information related to our established Terms of Sale and Limited Warranties. Given the information you provided, we will not be able to allow your order to be processed.
6 Likes
It absolutely is an accurate representation of the conversation. Post the transcript here if you want.
EU Consumer Law has two directives which basically require that they provide basic warranty support no matter the location of the person who purchased the product, including non-supported EU countries. They don’t have to pay for logistics, but they must carry out repairs or a refund based on the laws of the supported country they are selling from. How do I know this? It is part of my work.
Your Terms of Sale and limited Warranty do not invalidate EU law.
Either Framework knows this, and are trying to avoid being responsible for EU-wide warranty repairs or they don’t realise what they have stepped into by selling within the EU.
Simple English summaries of the laws are here, full documents can be found with a quick search:
EU consumer rights
2 Likes
We are not an EU-based business and are based in the United States. The consumer rights you are quoting are tied to businesses that are EU-member based and do not supersede our established Terms of Sale or Limited Warranties as a US company. We provide a 2-year Limited Warranty, as required to sell our products to our listed supported countries in the EU, but that does not require us to provide logistics support to countries we are not authorized to be in.
4 Likes
Okay great! Thank you. That’s exactly the info I was looking for. I even asked about that in the email with regard to shipping early on and it was not clarified. If the response I received in customer support was as clear as yours, everything would have been simpler.
Honestly, this should be specified and noted on all EU sales pre-payment because it is deceptive. We are buying from the US and importing a product to the EU. We are not buying within the EU at all and so are lacking basic rights we expect. This solidifies my statement that this company is not ready for the EU because, again, it is just a tactic to avoid EU consumer rights.
I’m glad I questioned as much as I did because I really dodged a bullet.
2 Likes
I mean I’m not an expert, but if I order a Framework laptop from Germany, I will get the laptop, because Framework is specifically open to Germany, for example. If I have any warranty related issues during my 2 years in Germany, I will get support and things will get sorted. If I need parts, etc. Framework will be in a position to help me. All of this because I am in a country that is officially supported. So while there are some instances you might be aware of not possible under this scenario, I really don’t understand your fear mongering folks about purchasing from Framework.
I do get the frustration about wanting a Framework and not being able to get it because your country or country of residence is not officially supported yet, but international law and business is INCREDIBLY complicated. That Framework is even trying to navigate it should be lauded.
6 Likes
This is not a fair statement. We do not have a legal entity that exists in the EU and are a company that came to fruition just a few years ago releasing our second generation product. As we scale operations, have legal entities in additional countries, and continue expanding our global footprint, things will evolve, but to say we are purposefully applying a tactic to avoid EU consumer rights is disingenuous.
12 Likes
I travel between many countries in the EU, three of them supported. The fact is that, even in the countries that are supported, their warranty does not cover the basic consumer rights that the EU provides. The EU is not just “This country and that country”, it isn’t like the US and Canada. It is an interconnected economy. I don’t know where you’re from, but it’s like saying “We support California, but if you move to Nevada, even your warranty is not valid”. It is just bizzarre. For context, I am quite informed about the topic because of my work.
The fact such a detailed discussion was necessary to get a clear answer is not inspiring. I asked support “Are you shipping from the US?” and a direct response was avoided.
If it were as rosy as you state, a direct, non-evasive answer (like your own) would have been easier to receive and the basic rights of the EU would be also be provided to EU citizens. It would sate before pre-order that a customer is importing the product not hide this fact and imply it is buying from a regional shop. This is disingenuous.
The Framework laptop is an experiment, it is a cool experiment, but ultimately experiments have a chance for failure. It is clear that the expansion team are well aware and have opted for the ability to withdraw from the EU quick and easy if it goes wrong—a common tactic by US companies wary of the stringent consumer rights here. I’ll belive your statement when Framework genuinely commits to the EU with all the complexity it brings.
2 Likes
Well I currently live in Germany. If I have a Visa to live in Germany, it does not mean I can live in the Netherlands, Spain, or Poland, even though those countries all belong to the EU. The EU is not just some blanket statement that makes all things equal. Germany’s customs regulation are extremely stringent. There are massive differences between German customs and Dutch customs, as another example.
You’re trying to say that a company being careful about global rollouts is a company that is trying to be dishonest, is just absolute nonsense.
I don’t really want to argue about this with you, because you obviously have your mind made up. I’m merely providing a counter point. I have no problems using my Framework in Germany. It works the exact same way as it would with any other laptop I could buy in Germany. This is my point.
5 Likes
If you are generally telling the truth, then this forum is not an appropriate place to discuss it. There are more appropriate channels to go through and I’m sure Frameworks legal eagle’s would happily answer your questions to clarify.
Being able to provide consistent support throughout multiple countries is a VERY difficult and long undertaking and should be, there are many, many complex variables to consider (External Service Desk contracts & support scope and etc). For context, I am quite informed about the topic because of my work.
As a consumer, you have the ability to make an informed choice. There is a system already in place by the company to answer your queries. If you are unhappy with this, that’s ok, that’s your choice and there are other vendors in the market you can purchase from.
I think so far this chain contains many different points that can be (& will be) misinterpreted by End Users. I don’t understand half of it myself and I think it divulges greatly from the original point of the post. You have every right to air your frustrations with Framework, whether rightly or wrongly, however, there are appropriate avenues to do so. I personally do not believe this forum is one of them. You may disagree, and that’s ok.
Best Regards
Varg
5 Likes
This may be because the company is located in the US legally, but the manufacturing takes place in Taiwan, so the computers also ship from there. They also have distribution centers in multiple countries to make logistics easier. None of that changes that they are a US company.
I’m not sure what information you are going off of for this claim. Going to the “contact us” page, the company is very clearly headquartered in California, and I cannot say that I have ever seen any implications that they are a regional shop.
4 Likes
It makes a lot of things equal and there’s plenty of EU directives (that all EU members must transpose as local laws) setting minimums for things like warranties.
In any case if Framework is shipping from China, the invoice comes from the US, there’s no Framework staff in the EU, etc, this seems rather moot. “Supported country” in this context seems to mean “locale specific keyboard, WiFi settings, power supply, we’ll ship to an address there”…
2 Likes
So is say, Apple, and whether they like it or not if they sell in the EU there’s a two years warranty.
2 Likes
Not sure what your argument here is, since Framework also has a 2 year warranty for it’s laptops sold in the EU countries that it supports.
1 Like
This requires more definition. Selling from as in where the company is HQ, or where the website is hosted, or where the DNS of the website’s domain name is registered…etc? What does the EU regulation say exactly?
i.e. There’s a distinction of selling to vs from. …and what’s considered as “from”.
Update:
Base on this page and this page, Framework is both the trader and manufacturer…based outside of the EU. As such, logistics / shipping cost for warranty repair doesn’t fall onto Framework base on this 2-year legal guarantee. The EU has no say / weight on how a trader outside of the EU is to operate, as the USA isn’t a Member State (obviously).
i.e. Just because a website has locale, currency support, free shipping for initial purchase for various regions…it doesn’t necessarily mean the company is based in that region.
Is this a legal requirement?
Is it hidden, or an omission?
The warranty page seems very clear to me:
3rd paragraph’s hyperlink…“What countries and regions do you ship to?”
Put it this way, is there anything in particular that lead you to assume Framework is based in the EU?
1 Like
Question: If a buyer came to the US and purchased the product, then traveled home to the EU is that buyer entitled to any warranties by the US entity under EU law? (especially since the device was exported?
1 Like
Aye, if you cannot prove within reason that it’s just your personal device or regular business device, you gotta pay the ol’ taxman his due. Even unboxed you cant just go waltzing by with 3-4 laptops.
Best Regards,
Varg
2 Likes
From the warranty page:
This Warranty applies to Framework-branded products purchased from Framework or an authorized reseller, and applies only in countries to which Framework ships and supports.
So if you return to an EU country that Framework supports, you can still get all the benefits of the 1-year warranty given to US customers, but if you return to a country that is not supported, you void the warranty that you agreed to.
As far as I can find in my limited research, the EU has no requirements for US businesses as far as warranties go (at least not on products bought in the US, from US businesses). Which makes sense to me, as I would assume US laws would apply here, even to EU residents.
Disclaimer: I am no legal expert, and none of this should be taken as legal advice, I am simply a random American with an internet connection and some google-fu skills.
1 Like