Curious: why post a product listing for a non-Framework product in Framework’s forum?
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This is the “General Topics” section, the description being:
With this category, you can talk about your pets, send memes, talk about your day, etc. This category is for Framework lovers and those who just want to hang out.
seeing as this is another computer that could be a competitor in some ways to the Framework Laptop, we can discuss what we think about it.
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I think talking about other products here is a little tactless, but this it isn’t the first time. But also, evidence that Framework is helping the industry move to a more sustainable and customer-oriented approach is good.
That said, Shift is one of those companies whose company page and product pages say all the right things. But I’ve never seen any of their devices in the flesh, AND I know no one how does either.
Given some of the Linux circles I’m in, and their frenzied approach to anything that supports Linux or OSS in general, their silence on the company is also worrisome.
There is also VERY little talk of this device being repairable. Upon digging you will see that apparently the design is modular, and the device can be upgraded. BUT… you have to send the device to them. It is not designed for you to do.
While there could be some advantage and convenience to that for some, it also means that troubleshooting repair and other things like modification are out of the question, or at least in so far as they are for every other glued shut, surface mounted product out there.
From a tech standpoint it is using Intel 11th gen technology and is fanless. This mean this device is going to be thermally throttled heavily. I would not expect this to be a powerful platform compared to Framework laptops (including 11th gens). I’m not saying that it is not completely usable as a laptop. Just that this will not be a speed monster.
Looking it has 4 USB C ports, 2 of which are thunderbolt 4. No modularity on the port selection, but it does have a micro sd card reader. It also has a touchscreen with an active pen. Reading a bit more it seems like things like the battery and display can replaced at home and are easy.
Honestly, the relative obscurity of the company and their products, and the compromises of their design aren’t very compelling to me. Making a Framework tablet makes more sense to me.
Now if Framework did not exist, I admit I would be far more interested with this. But also, Framework, if you are listening, a tablet seems like low hanging fruit for you all. It would crush the Surface line, simply because companies could repair them. Oh the possibilities.
Note: I live in Germany.
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I think the Shift phones etc. like the Fairphone company are EU orientated so they will not be heard of much elsewhere.
However they have some reasonable write ups
So yes Framework, low hanging fruit maybe, but what about the fair trade aspect, that for me is the major selling point.
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Could you tell me more about why “talking about other products here is a little tactless”? I thought this kind of information about competitors or trend shared by customers or potential customers is beneficial for Framework to know it.
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As you can see from my original post, I’m right there with you. The reason I find talking about other company’s products here a little tactless is because Framework pays the bills for this space to be open. They do so to help cultivate the community that exists as a result of their products. Other products that can potentially cut into their sales would diminish their investment.
I could see it bit like someone buying food from Wendy’s and then going to McDonalds and eating it there, while also trying to engage people to talk about your Wendy’s junior bacon cheeseburger. I would fully expect the staff at McDonalds to tell you to get out.
Framework is very gracious in this regard, which is why I find this all slightly tactless. Doing something just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
That said, I’m not condoning or dis-approving this thread. hahaha!
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Well I’m used to the Fairphone forum, which is likewise set up ‘free’ by the company. There is a difference in that
- It is moderated by the users not the company
- It clearly states that there is a topic for similar industries
- I have posted, as have others links to Framework
- Is there really a difference in having a topic rather than items being mentioned in other posts.
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Thanks for the answer. I got your points. From the analogy of Wendy and McDonalds, I can understand why you feel a little tactless.
Possibly a difference of assumption between us is that I have an assumption that these kind of information is to increase Framework’s sales, rather than decrease, though the information is sometimes not comfortable emotionally for Framework.
Framework can know customers needs by sending survey, and they can research the competitors information by themselves. However, it’s much more powerful for Framework to know customers real needs and competitors trend on read-time by much more people. Framework can be stronger for change from outside.
I think these kind of information increases Framework’s trust. Because I think people are more sensitive about what is not written or what is not said.
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I can see your point as well Junaruga. I think this is also why Framework permits it.
I would have been really excited about the Shift tablet here before I knew about Framework. But now that I have 2 Framework laptops and 2 Framework servers (mainboards being used for server duties), I just haven’t seen anything come even close to what Framework has accomplished. It’s awesome!
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@2disbetter sorry to say, but that line of thinking is why the Manjaro forums are essentially dead compared to what they were 5 years ago. They used community engagement to get them to a point and then jettisoned the community.
If you are going to be an open source supporting, right to repair company, an open forum for discussion goes hand in hand as long as those topics don’t open the company to liability in a legal sense (i.e. the freight forwarding announcement). IMHO any tech item should be open for discussion…like the recent Dell Luna Project thread, or pretty much anything else that relates to tech that might enhance community engagement.
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@nadb yeah I’m not infallible for sure. I agree with you. I also think that it does provide some pros to the community at large. That is why I said it was only slightly tactless, and nothing more. 
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Thanks @2disbetter; this nicely articulates my own thinking.
I think there’s value in referencing other products for comparison of features, either as features Framework should incorporate or features they should avoid; but that comparison should be explicit. Just dropping a link to an outside product without any context doesn’t tell us if this is a device worth emulating,a device worth avoiding, or if the link was dropped by a competitor to try and drive sales of their product.
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To be clear, Framework never directed the moderators to stifle discussion regarding competing products. In fact, they never mentioned it at all.
I am in agreement with @2disbetter though, it doesn’t feel right. Tactless, as he put it. His Wendy’s/McDonalds analogy is exactly how it feels. Posting this on an impartial 3rd party site is fair game, but here seems different.
Framework is fully accepting such discussion though. I want to make that clear.
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I think posting links to the competition is fair play, with some limitations:
- When someone asks me what kind of laptop I would suggest him to buy on here and the Framework laptop really is not a good product for him. I think this is fair
- When you are comparing similiar products and/or explore the space of products, possibly checking where framework could invest in the future
- Purely advertising competitors products just for the sake of “grabbing views” is not ok for me
As for the shiftphone, I do not have a good feeling about them. Something looks off to me, even when they (as @2disbetter already said) found the right words to use.
They seem to have spare parts in their store. However, I havent heard about a single person replacing their parts. Also, I believe shiftphone is creating new phones rather than updating their old ones with new hardware, as the current trend with new models is going.
FairPhone looks much better for me in that regard, probably because I’ve seen quite a few interviews and checked quite a few reviews and media statements.
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I understand why both of you would have that opinion, I was just commenting that it is a slippery slope that ends in a very bad place. Framework caters to a certain crowd, and that crowd tends to like tech news or at least I do. I particularly like it when it lands in my lap because someone else in the community ran across it, kind of how I came across Framework accidentally and then spread it around assorted forums. They are literally for discussion and word of mouth. When moderators make comments about the appropriateness of something it either promotes or stifles discussion because most will see that as the moderator putting on the moderator hat. That is what I was calling attention to.
There is a difference between a bot spamming a link to a product, and an engaged community member posting a product link.
Don’t forget this is in the pipeline for example I emailed them to ask about the CMOS/RTC battery issue.
Cross community insight is how we get on as a species not by curtailing discussions about people outside our ‘group’ To call that tactless amounts to censorship, which is fine if that’s how this community wants to run, but it puts me on the edge and have a choice.
Don’t speak of alternatives or go elsewhere to talk. I boycott many countries due to their restrictions on free speech etc. and I’m rather disturbed to find this information can be so disturbing.
I’m happy if a moderator wants to delete the topic though, that’s their job.
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Nah, we don’t want to close it. I agree with some of the counter arguments being made here, but it is also not our decision. Framework permits this sort of thing. 
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There’s a big difference between saying something is tactless and saying that therefore it can’t be said. No one on this thread has said ‘you can’t say that’, only that it’s a bit rude.
For myself, I wasn’t saying you shouldn’t link to it: I was asking why you linked to it. You didn’t provide any context for the link, just said “here it is!” And posted some specs. Should I look at it as an alternative to Framework? A model for the next generation of Framework development? I didn’t know why you posted the link, so I asked for more context (which you provided in one of your responses; thanks!).
Agreed completely. Just please tell us why you’re sharing the product link when you share it.
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Well I’ve updated the opening post to clarify and thanks for the nudge and criticism 
Note I didn’t put the make in the title as it was to point to a future possibilty with ‘wanted’ assets.
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The shift13mi is an interesting idea, but the shop being in german only (correct me if wrong, could not find how to set the webshop in english) is a turn off. Even all their PR media is in german as far as I could see.
Same with the phones, they look interesting, but I’m not in the german market, so it seems unwise to spend money like that in a company that seems based in Germany and nowhere else.
But the same idea of the shift13mi with the upcoming AMD Framework motherboard sounds incredible.
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