That’s also without messing with the fan curve. If we can set custom fan curves, then that limit becomes higher. The hotter the CPU is, the more efficiently it can cool with the environment, so there’s likely extra gains to be had there if you’re comfortable playing with your CPU temp.
1 Like
+1, with an extra point of if you can live with having the fan on min you get a lot more performance, the difference between no airflow and any airflow is pretty huge.
It is definitely possible but someone has to write the drivers for it.
Some quick research found that software based tdp (and other stuff) adjustment software at least for linux doesn’t support the 7000 series jet so a bios option would definitely be nice.
Long term the software options are better cause you can change the limits on the fly but until then a bios option would be really nice.
EC is open source so we can do whatever we want there.
That also raises skin temperature issues, passive designs either throttle so much the whole device won’t get too hot or have complex partially insulated setups.
1 Like
That’s the FW13. Assuming the FW16 would be identical is disingenuous.
Well, that’s disappointing. Thanks for the info though!
I hadn’t thought of that, definitely something that’d require experimentation.
1 Like
Since the heatsink fins are right next to the expansion card bay, it might be possible to make an expansion bay that somehow acts to help with passive cooling? I’ve got no idea how one might get any good thermal conductivity between the fins on the computer and any setup in the expansion bay. Still, might be possible I suppose. But frankly… turning down performance settings is probably the easiest option tbh.
1 Like
I can confirm if you disable turbo & use powersave governor (auto-cpufreq), even at 100% cpu usage in all cores - in software compilation (i5-1135g7) the cpu temps don’t go above 65-70 degrees without attached fans in framework 13.
I was even able to play valorant (needed to limit 60fps), low graphics, and it went really good: cpu temps never hit above 76 degrees. Had to set CPU limit 99% in the power options in Windows. It automatically disables turbo.
So I believe its not bad to use laptop with fans disconnected, if you can just disable turbo.
Also if you want to try it out as well, note that in BIOS you have to keep these 3 Intel-SpeedStep settings so that software (auto-cpufreq) can control & apply the changes to the cpu, otherwise limiting doesn’t work (i.e. intel-pstate driver hardware builtin takes over and sometimes forces turbo when needed).
2 Likes
I may have simply had a different experience, but I have to admit that I have been buying laptops for years instead of desktop systems exactly BECAUSE laptops were dead silent - at least mine. It is quite difficult to get a silent desktop - a whole world in itself of passive cooling and getting RTX 3080s running on it - but my laptops were always silent in web browsing tasks, video watching, office, etc. My personal laptop was a razer blade, it was dead silent for 2 years for those tasks. So maybe the solution is to buy high-end performance laptops and turn fan control to a minimum setting. I think they should handle quite a lot without heavy fan use, even if they get older.
Long-term alternative is water cooling, finally coming around the corner for internal cooling only for laptops 
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M1GbIjrD9s&t=3s
PS: But yes, I agree, a laptop that is not dead silent with fans turned off entirely during light use is imo always a complete dealbreaker.
2 Likes
(Continuing my previous comment)
Here’s proof: Compiling Linux Kernel for over 10 mins, CPU temps 69, fans disconnected.
4 Likes
On the same note, a silent computer will eventually thermal throttle if they don’t thermal throttle when they’re brand new.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand that everyone has different noise level tolerances. That being said, my 12th gen 13 is silent 90% of the time and 100% of the time when I’m doing normal things (YT videos, browsing the web, document editing, etc.).
We also have to keep in mind the economy that Framework is working in right now. They are pretty expensive up front because they are smaller and don’t have the economy of scale that Apple or HP does. Most people who will buy or recommend any Framework laptop is going to want more performance than a Macbook Air when Frameworks cost over a grand.
I don’t understand this. What changes over time? Thermal paste? If so, you need to reapply every two year for every computer anyway, to make sure it’s optimal.
Yeah, that’s another dimension. I just wish.
But I really believe silent computers would be loved by millions of consumers, if offered. So this is probably a good opportunity for an ambitious brave manufacturer, like Framework.
Let’s see how many programmers will go for Macbook Air M2 15” the near future. This is a good indicator.
1 Like
At the beginning of the life of the computer it’s fine. Over time, fans get old and dirty. Actually, fans and exhausts getting dirty is pretty quick, typically in six months. Then you start to get more noise for the same RPM and it goes monotonically up. Sure you clean them up periodically, if you are a responsible user, but it’s daunting, also no matter how well you clean it doesn’t go back to ‘fresh condition’.
Another thing: When the computer is new, light load is easy for the computer, so it stays cool and fans don’t work too much, overtime software requirements increase but the computer stays the same, so it starts to work harder. After 5-6 years, the usual light tasks start to make the computer work hard, fans too. Now you might say, yeah, you should put it in the trash after 5 years, but I don’t feel that way, I’m the type who wants to use his computer for 10 years. Why should I waste money and damage the environment if there is another way?
1 Like
Thanks for the inputs guys, I appreciate the discussion, it was productive.
So I guess these are things that can be done:
- Framework can consider offering an optimized fanless option as a distinct product.
- Framework can consider offering a BIOS on existing products to kill fans or keep them very low profile, or a more sophisticated fan curve control, so the end user does not have to deal with it. Also, before the purchase user can be provided with fanless benchmarks of a given system, so he/she knows what to expect from the system without active cooling.
- Framework can consider using the expansion bay for a passive cooling option.
- Framework can offer a power-efficient CPU to complement the potential solutions listed above.
Let me know if I missed any.
1 Like
Thanks for testing. Could you give us some benchmark results if that’s not a big hassle for you?
The dell rugged extreme laptops have a covert / stealth mode:
https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/en-ca/latitude-14-7424-laptop/lati_7424_sm/stealth-mode?guid=guid-3655713b-6a1b-46a8-ba69-eaa3c324b3cd&lang=en-us
Designed for stealth operation, literally, by design.
(and you can optionally turn the LCD back on)
Not exactly a fan’less’ operation…but fan-off operation.
Can you specify the type of benchmark? I may have to do some search as I haven’t done benchmark for any purpose till now…
I am wondering if you disable all the P cores and limit TDP. Pull out the fan and replace it with a copper shim inside, would that be possible?
I saw some kind of school laptop using a configuration that just uses e-cores working fanless that way. Of course, the disabled P cores do consume power and generate more heat than a setup with only e cores but I guess it works.
Maybe another way is to try for a Raspberry Pi 5 (I prefer the RK3588 but software support is bad) compute module and design a carrier board to work with the Framework chassis.
There’s a guy doing a 3D printed rugged design for the Framework. Maybe you can leverage on it. (I have been wanting to leverage on it and 3D print a glass fibre top cover and input cover, maybe even with a keys with slightly more travel/more obvious tactile bump, and even a more rounded key shape similar to thinkpads, but money has been running kinda tight recently so yea).
I have worked with this kind of pc a lot, but they are a whole different game than a laptop. Convective fins are neat if you don’t have to follow the same skin temperature constraints a laptop has to. Hell even ignoring skin temp, where would you put them on a laptop? Only place with the right orientation would be the display but then how’d you get the heat there, can’t just use a heatpipe since there is a hinge? Also the heat-sinks for chips that are more than a couple watts get heavy quick.
Good thing you can replace the fan if or when it becomes too loud at min, on the 16 you don’t even have to repaste the heatsink for that, even though you probably should at that point.
That sounds more like a pro to having a fan to me since you can use more fan to make it perform good enough for longer, I don’t see how it being passive magically gives you more performance later if you need more unless you mod a fan onto it.
My suggestion was setting the max fan speed as high as you are comfortable with and living with the performance that gives you, not just not stressing the cpu hard enough to make the fan spin up.
Imo unlikely, we are allready in a niche within a niche, this is a couple levels further down that path, especially a 16inch passive.
That sounds like something a lot more reasonable. Mainly what framework would have to provide would be access to the tdp settings, that fan control part could be done by the community.
That is probably more of a diy option
A U version of the 16 would probably be neat though I kinda doubt the performance difference between a 7840u capped to 10w and a 7840hs capped to 10w is going to be huge since they are just different bins of exactly the same silicon with different configurations so it may not be worth the extra SKU.
That sounds a lot like my “sleep-mode” script I have on my t480s, turn of fan, turn off leds, screen is turned off when I close it anyway and it literally doesn’t have speakers anymore so that parts out.
Leave the p-cores and just limit tdp, the e-cores are more about die size efficiency than power efficiency.
3 Likes
