Umm… No?
Almost all of it is good… And BIOS Retimer fix is coming soon-ish?
That seems like a bit of a strong statement that I know a lot owners disagree on.
**** Opinion **** [Take it with a huge dump of salt]
And that’s fine. Not everything said has to have 100% agreement. Freedom to disagree.
I just know, for the 11th gen:
- You may have some kind of RTC battery workaround / anxiety.
- You may have some kind of Lid / cover bent /dent workaround / anxiety.
- You may have some kind of LCD crack prevention / anxiety.
- You may have some kind of USB connect / disconnect / dropouts prevention / anxiety.
- You may have some kind of Fn Lock mental tracking.
- You may occasionally wish the speakers were better and / or at least louder in some environment.
- You may have some screen glare workaround (screen protector).
- You may have sleep / wake completion, excessive heat while stuck getting into sleep issue.
And power to you if you’ve experienced absolutely none of the above.
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Absolutely. It’s just your first message gave the message that everyone will hate it after time, instead of that being your opinion!
Yes there definetly have been some issues I absolutely agree! But it is important to keep in mind that there is a selection effect here on the forums, most people who come here will be here because they have an issue that they need help with.
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These are very strong worded opinions where you have generalized what customers should expect from the quality of our products, which I assure you, is not based in reality for the majority of our Community. Assuming individuals will “hate” something and saying that Framework should, “…get their act together” is not constructive and is not adding value to the Framework Community.
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Let me reword that. Done.
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Some related sources / opinions:
(Love the laptop / idea):
Who is this for:
So, in summary (my interpretation), you’re not really buying the laptop for the laptop, you’re buying the laptop to support Framework, and the philosophy. There are sacrifices…that we now know of in hindsight. (I, personally lacked the foresight to foresee how it’s not for me)
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I think some important context in regards to this whole thread, is that the 11th gen Framework was and still is a 1st product for the company. They have had over a year to refine it, and the laptop I bought in the 2nd batch is definitely different from the one I own today, simply due to all the Firmware updates that have happened in that time.
This being said, I am close to the ideal user for the Framework. I use it daily for simple web browsing and video watching, in my home, with a charger nearby. It also isn’t my only computer, so if I ever had a problem with it, I have multiple backups. I don’t even use it for work, so I’m never doing critical tasks on it. Because of all these points, I love this computer. Is is perfect? nope, but I’ve never owned or seen a laptop that I’d consider perfect, so I don’t expect perfection from my devices. There will always be tradeoffs, whether it’s battery, power, repairabiliy, aesthetics, etc.
The important thing to me is that Framework as a company is doing an amazing job, even if they still need time to improve their craft. I am still amazed that the 11th gen laptops are still getting firmware updates, even after 12th gen is out and the chromebook is on the way, the fact that Framework support does an amazing job, and admits/corrects their mistakes when pointed out, and the fact that the company is still pushing repairability and upgradeability is commendable. I love coming on the forum almost daily to offer support to other users, and see all the cool projects being worked on because I want to see Framework succeed, and I think that even though progress has been slow and there have been lots of bumps in the road, I trust the company to keep up the good work.
As for the original question, its all very subjective, but I think that hearing the use case, the 11th gen will be a great deal, and shouldn’t be a bad option. It likely wont last as long on battery as you’d like, but maybe this retiming fix will help! It won’t have the rigidity of a milled casing, and that means that the screen is at more risk to break, but you can buy the milled top cover on the marketplace if you want, and the refurb comes with a 1 year warranty, so if you have any screen issues before that Framework will help you out. All the issues listed above have been reported on the forum, and could be a problem for you, but they also all have workarounds/solutions. Many were fixed in the 12th gen laptop, and many aren’t even issues in competing laptops, so it’s a good thing you came to this forum and asked for advice because now you are aware of the risks, but as others have said, you are unlikely to see ALL these issues, and if you do, Framework support is willing to help you fix them if they can. Look at the issues, and decide for yourself if the benefits outweigh the costs, and maybe the answer will be “wait for now and come back for Framework’s 13th gen, or even 14th gen model” but maybe the answer will be “I can work with what is already out there”. Choose what’s best for you, this is a user forum, so I don’t think that the vibe should be “you have to buy a Framework laptop even if it isn’t right for you” but I also don’t think we want to be bad-mouthing the company on their own site.
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8 months later how do I feel?
Very rarely am I in on day one (for UK issue I was) but…I wish I had waited and not let my excitement get the better of me.
I think the next release (13th gen?) could be a good one IF they up the strength of the screen assembly a bit more than even the refreshed version.
But at the time I really wanted to show support for something that as a small business and domestic IT support guy affects me day to day. In theory it’s amazing. In practice it’s still at least another 18 months away I feel.
I can feel myself moving the Framework on in a year. I usually keep my laptops till they fall apart or just become obsolete but I don’t feel this one will be for the long haul. We shall see.
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I appreciate all the additional perspectives. I still need to follow some of the linked content above to make a more complete judgement, but I think for my use case (where the Framework will not be my primary computer but will be used daily) I can tolerate some of the issues that have been a problem for others. And knowing that Framework is relatively new, I did expect there to be some bumps. Also, as a person who uses Linux as my primary OS, I’m used to accepting some amount of hassle to support what I consider to be a better model for computing. That said, I do want to get a laptop that will be a useful tool, and not a hobby project.
Mostly I was looking for any non-obvious differences between the 11th gen and 12th gen that might make the 11th gen significantly worse for my use case (especially gotchas involving Linux hardware support, which is a frequent issue with laptops). The RTC issue sounds pretty annoying, but probably won’t be a big issue for my use case.
I do see some issues around power consumption while sleeping, which would be a bigger impact to my use case (as I expect to use it in short spurts with a lot of time spent in sleep mode). My impression from quick skimming is that this can be mitigated through some settings changes (using deep sleep) and avoiding the addition of ports other than USB-A and USB-C (it sounds like the others seem to impact power consumption during sleep significantly). If that impression is accurate, then this sounds manageable.
The other I issue I see for my use is the sturdiness of the top lid, and that’s only because I have a bad habit of putting stuff on top of my laptop. I should, you know, just not do that, but knowing that habit it seems wise to maybe get the stronger lid. I realize that I could get the 11th gen refurb and replace the lid with the sturdier model (bought from the marketplace), but at that point the cost savings vs. hassle tradeoff for the refurb is getting worse (and honestly the price was not that big a factor anyway). So, silly as it may be, this may be what would push me to the 12th gen.
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I don’t feel this is a ‘tool laptop’. I’ve taken mine out on a few jobs and…I’m always aware it’s not as sturdy as my previous old Dell Lattiude bangers.
It’s more a coffee shop laptop really. Lovely device but maybe too lovely.
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Have not been following this thread, but did when I checked in at Reddit.
I can see from the posts here that Framework has not handled the problem wisely. A post here, a post there, the suggestion that you should just sell this and get rid of your problem by passing it on to another. I have not talked to support, but I see that has not been productive in terms of getting a resolution that works for 11 gen buyers who bought into the Framework concept from the beginning, as I did with an early DIY. Bad philosophy at the top of the Framework organization IMO.
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@Nicholas_C_DeBord It really depends on your use case. It is quite likely that if you daily drive the laptop, that particular flaw will never manifest itself. Besides, what exactly would you suggest Framework do? Buy back all the boards? Issue full refunds? Ideally hardware flaws such as these would never have made it to final production but flaws were and are inevitable. Larger companies have the resources to absorb such losses. Framework doesn’t even have the funds to launch a product and keep it in stock until months after launch. Every interaction I have seen directly involving Framework support has generally been positive but there are limits to what can be done. Be reasonable.
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They could maybe offer a damn good trade in discount on a 12th or future 13th gen board…
Help keep the 11th gen folks in the fold so to speak. Otherwise…off we go elsewhere.
Listen, I don’t think anyone would be happy to see you go. However, if this issue is causing so many problems for you then maybe that is your only option.
I have not had to deal with the RTC issue myself, but I use my FW laptops regularly. I upgraded one to a 12th gen, but my second is still a 11th gen, AND I have 2 additional 11th Gen mainboards now (as the result of the upgrade and a UMPC project I’m working on). 1 of those extra mainboards has recently taken up server duties and is doing a great job at being a sort of VM farm for me.
I’m not saying the RTC thing doesn’t exist, but rather that its impact isn’t the same for everyone. For me it is not even an issue.
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Perhaps one could think about it in this fashion. Framework’s stated purpose was to engage with a community to produce a do it yourself laptop. They succeeded beyond perhaps their wildest dreams. An almost perfect product, albeit with inital design issues that they have dealt with in their second generation laptops. However, they buried their heads in the sand and never dealt with an issue which, in some cases, make the 11th gen laptops painful to use. As one faithful user here said, the bare minimum you expect from a laptop is that it turns on, whether you are using it today, tomorrow or next month. Bare minimum.
As Framework did not officially acknowledge this by setting up a mechanism for replacement, instead providing “buyer beware” suggestion to just sell it off to either unknowing folks or tell them about the defect and take a haircut in the sales price, I for one am left with a queasy feeling that this particular company has voided its mission statement.
Having done a few startups myself (not in tech), there are ways to mitigate the pain for the company, including write offs, insurance, etc… A partial discount would be a way forward and a temporary haircut for the company, not just the end user. Just sayin’
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That’s good for you. However, for some it is an important issue and that in no way makes it less important going forward in our purchasing decisions. If a mistake like this can slip though once, what’s to say…
If someone buys a car and the battery kept going flat, and the company just said “well keep it on charge! Nothing we can do, it’s a design thing that affects x% of customers!”, you probably wouldn’t blame the person for buying something else next time.
I like my Framework but I’m not overly loyal to it like some here appear to be. If a better deal comes along… 
Except…that is exactly what battery tenders are for. To keep vehicles that aren’t intended to be used for extended periods charged up and ready for use. If you don’t drive a vehicle for an extended period and the battery dies, nobody blames the vehicle. The laptop is meant to be used, not as a show piece. If you use the laptop regularly, you will almost certainly never run into this issue.
Framework’s advice is consistent with that analogy. They tell customers that if you don’t intend to use it for an extended period, to leave it plugged in with the battery charge limit set to preserve battery life.
Oh boy. 
In 30 years of driving I’ve never had a car that needed that even when left for weeks or months.
In 25 years of laptop usage I’ve never had a laptop that needed that even when left for weeks or months.
Just the Framework. Oh well…I guess it’s my fault as a consumer.
And yet, for example in germany, every fire truck is connected to the grid to keep it charged up.
I had a car battery dying in the first corona lockdown here in germany, because I didnt use it for a month. It is a thing. This doesnt excuse the issue that framework has with the battery draining rather fast, but it happens to other devices as well, just (possibly) slower
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Ahhh sorry, I must have missed the message that Framework Community Support is basically a few committed and brand loyal individuals, telling other customers that have a problem, it isn’t a problem and therefore, it’s not an issue! Gotcha!
Now I know, it makes sense. All is good in the world.
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