I would say it is a “dumb” move to accept BITCOIN as it is more of an “investment vehicle” then an actual currency and is WAY to unstable
I LIKE “crypto” and believe ETHER and smart contracts has a LOT of future and there are coins talking about “POPW” proof of PRODUCTIVE work where the miners are say chewing through big data sets for AI learning OR DNA sequencing ETC
Well this thread aged well.
8 Likes
Wow, this thread is still going? The haters always come out of the woodwork when Bitcoin goes down. It’s hardly original. To mark this moment for when people revisit this thread in 5 years to gasp at how naive the haters were, here’s where we stand:
-
Canada froze the bank accounts of citizens they disliked
-
The US cut Russia off from SWIFT and confiscated USD assets
-
US sanctions have backfired and Russia is now trading commodities for Rubles, gold, and bitcoin
-
The world is realizing they depended on Russian commodities more than they’d like to admit
-
Powell just recently acknowledged that the use of the USD as the global reserve currency is quickly coming to an end
-
Japan has basically given up fighting inflation and the USDJPY is at 134 and rising (from 104 ealier in the year!)
-
The euro is looking increasingly fragile
-
Every G7 currency is experiencing rising inflation and central banks are, so far, powerless to stop it
-
A new deposit of gold has been found in Uganada, roughly doubling the world’s gold supply
-
US is on the verge of what’s looking like a major recession, and is likely already in one.
-
Many tech stocks have crashed over 70%
-
Leveraged crypto funds are blowing up
-
Bitcoin dominance has been increasing as shitcoins crash. It’s dominance against ETH has especially improved as people realize PoS is nonsense
-
Bitcoin has “crashed” to just below 20k (apparently 20k is now the level where Bitcoin is finally dead)
-
There’s still only 21m bitcoin.
Apparently, despite all of the above, the framework/hackernews crowd can’t find the value or purpose of an asset with fixed characteristics that is outside of government control. Worse, the same crowd still seems to believe central banks are competent. As usual these Bitcoin haters have come out to declare victory because Bitcoin has finally crashed (again).
Lets revisit in 5 years (assuming framework as a company still exists after the Feds destructive policies).
This conversation started around the Framework statement, so I don’t see any value in straying beyond that discussion space, particularly with geopolitical statements without complete context; there are subreddits for that.
Every country is dealing with 5-7% inflation in the wake of a global pandemic, including (among others) Canada, the US, and the UK. But when it comes to Bitcoin, you can’t really have inflation when going in the only direction left for an already inflated currency; a 57%+ loss is pretty harsh, and it’s still just as energy inefficient and inaccessible as it ever was.
Bitcoin has no intrinsic value except the hope and hype propagated by it’s holders and amplified by it’s hypers, whether it’s Musk et al, or the President of El Salvador.
5 Likes
so I don’t see any value in straying beyond that discussion space, particularly with geopolitical statements without complete context
You can’t discuss the merits of Bitcoin and the reason it should be accepted without considering the global environment.
Every country is dealing with 5-7% inflation in the wake of a global pandemic
5-7%? That’s optimistic. You must work for the fed. Optimistic measures of inflation are currently higher than that in the US – CPI is 8.6%, PPI 10.8%! In Europe, Greece is seeing 11.3%, Poland 13.9%, Lithuania 18.9%!
But when it comes to Bitcoin, you can’t really have inflation when going in the only direction left for an already inflated currency
The Japanes Yen has lost 25% of its value from a year ago. The Turkish Lira has lost 60%. The british pound has lost 17%. And that’s relative to the USD. Those are major government backed currencies losing significant chunks of value in less than a year.
57%+ loss is pretty harsh
Now what’s the loss over 5 years? Anything less than 5 years is speculation.
it’s still just as energy inefficient and inaccessible as it ever was.
This is an opinion. I think the energy usage is much too small. That energy usage is what secures the blockchain and is incredibly important to defend it from government tampering.
Bitcoin has no intrinsic value except the hope and hype propagated by it’s holders and amplified by it’s hypers, whether it’s Musk et al, or the President of El Salvador.
Another opinion. The market thinks it has at least 20k worth of value currently. Intrinsic value comes from the ability to save the fruits of your labor and transmit that value across the globe instantly without a middleman. Technology which enables humans to save without counterparty risk is incredibly valuable. You’re naive if you can’t see that. Just another Bitcoin hater. You aren’t even bringing anything original to the table in your criticisms here.
This kind of mentality is what drives the Bitcoin ‘haters’, though (including myself). Burning through lots of energy (which is not sustainable) just to do useless computations without anything productive coming from them is just…stupid. There are other cryptocurrencies out there that force you to do useful work (e.g. Gridcoin), for example. While that’s potentially equally unsustainable in terms of burning through lots of energy, at least then there’s some sort of productive research or knowledge coming from it (akin to running a distributed research project with a small payoff).
6 Likes
This kind of mentality is what drives the Bitcoin ‘haters’, though (including myself). Burning through lots of energy (which is not sustainable) just to do useless computations without anything productive coming from them is just…stupid
That’s nice. Why don’t you start a crusade against Christmas lights next? Every Christmas you can call everyone burning all that energy stupid.
Just because you can’t see the value in something doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value. And indeed, bitcoin has significant monetary value, despite all your kicking and screaming.
Take it easy with your accusations and inference. This is a reminder for all in this thread to remember this. Framework’s community website is not your space to squabble. This thread contains a lot of opinions. Personal insults are not necessary.
I tend to agree with Framework’s stance. I have yet to see anything in this thread or on the internet that has changed my mind. I’ll note that my mind is open to the possibility. The odds of it are pretty slim as I think the case against crypto currency as far as sustainability is concerned are pretty solid.
6 Likes
Take it easy with your accusations and inference.
Of course you ignore the inferences from people on your side (“just to do useless computations without anything productive coming from them is just…stupid.”).
Anyways, it’s the same story: the haters completely ignore the vast sums of energy spent on things that are actively malicious and harmful while endlessly complaining about Bitcoin’s usage. For instance:
-
How much energy is spent on PRISM? Intelligence agencies have the largest data centers in the world used to violate the rights of its citizens. This isn’t just energy spent on pointless endeavors, this is energy spent on maliciousness.
-
How much energy is spent on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok? The data centers are enormous, and they provide a product which actively destroys people’s mental health
-
How much energy is lost due to inflation? I’ve worked and saved my entire life and saving in USD has been incredibly inefficient. The cost of a house continues to be out of reach for me despite that being my primary goal for over a decade. My energy is being wasted trying to keep up with rising housing costs.
-
How much energy is spent supporting the value of the dollar? Endless wars are directly connected to the dollar’s value at the cost of enormous life. Why are the Bitcoin haters so quick to dismiss these costs? Because they’re harder to quantify? I guarantee you more energy is spent on the world’s militaries than is spent on Bitcoin.
-
How much environmental destruction is caused by mining for gold? Have you seen the pictures of utterly destroyed ecosystems?
Bitcoin haters are quick to ignore all these things. You refuse to acknowledge the importance of being able to save money without fear of government dilution of savings. Maybe someday you guys will get it, probably when it’s too late.
disclaimer: i have made several crypto transactions in my life and i think it’s in general an exciting piece of technology.
in the real world i think there are several reasons not just tied to the environment why one would not want to go all-in on crypto when it comes to transactions.
it would be good if most crypto advocates actually tried running a business which involves a tax and accounting division that needs to handle crypto transactions and invoices. considering the issues framework has with logistics in the EU i would expect this to add a significant layer of complexity. besides, in order for these transactions to happen seamlessly (outside of the dark web or informal exchanges) often businesses rely on middle men with even higher fees than banks.
in short, i don’t think it’s unreasonable for framework not to support crypto for the time being.
I do not, and made certain to direct my response to all.
I’m against government surveillance and I absolutely recognize that the military is one of the worst offenders when it comes to the climate crisis (along with heavy industry and companies more generally). You’re assuming I don’t care about these things when I absolutely do. And I argue with supporters of those things in exactly the same way 
All of that being said, this feels like you’re sort of diverting away from the main question. When people point out that Bitcoin uses enormous amounts of energy (to do what is certifiably ‘useless’ work, in the sense that nothing of inherent value comes out from it), you just point to other offenders with the hope that we’ll excuse Bitcoin. But we can focus on more than one thing at a time, and we can be against more than one thing at a time. Being against Bitcoin (not crypto in general, as I noted above, though again, even ones that produce useful work still consume enormous amounts of energy and aren’t sustainable) doesn’t mean I can’t also be against endless war and privacy invasions.
Anyway, this is obviously off-topic and could go on forever. I’m not trying to pick a fight or anything (@2disbetter), just felt like I had to respond to @Andrew_Gottemoller’s allegations. In service of civility and keeping stuff on topic, this will be my last comment on this post
I’m against government surveillance and I absolutely recognize that the military is one of the worst offenders
Cheers to that! Something we can agree on
you just point to other offenders with the hope that we’ll excuse Bitcoin.
I don’t. I was quite explicit above - I don’t think the work Bitcoin does is useless. The work performed by miners is directly related to the security of the chain. I was also clear when I said the network needs to spend more energy on mining to help secure the chain from government maliciousness.
We differ in that I don’t think Bitcoin’s energy use is pointless as I see technology which facilitates savings as being an important innovation.
All of that being said, this feels like you’re sort of diverting away from the main question.
I don’t think it does. My original post was about Frameworks refusal to accept Bitcoin. I’m happy to acknowledge Bitcoin is a grassroots movement and without support of people it’ll fail. Discussing the merits of Bitcoin and why it’s preferrable to government fiat currencies directly relates to why Framework should accept it in support of this social movement.
It’s also ironic that Framework was apparently founded in part by someone’s savings in Bitcoin (who has now become a hater). It demonstrates that when people are able to save money they are more able to start businesses such as Framework which do good in the world. This is one of the many reasons why Bitcoin should be accepted - to support the movement and take the power of money printing away from governments.
I don’t really want to write an essay but I suspect by the time I’m done it will be.
The TL:DR is pretty simple: you’re wrong…very, very, wrong. Let’s unpack that shall we?
The only commodity that Russia possesses of any value is Natural Gas and Oil, a commodity that was explicitly NOT sanctioned because of the potential impact on Europe refuting this quote as well
Nobody went into this blind and what Russia provides outside of oil and petro products is fairly small with natural resource exports accounting for 60% of it’s GDP (source)
This is not a new phenomena as both Russia and China have realized that sanctions can really hurt their economy and if not sufficiently protected, they are vulnerable to the kind of pain inflicted on Iran. From a strictly geo-political stance, it makes sense to divest from using USD as reserve currency. Even Europe wants to move away from this so that they are less beholden to the decisions of the Fed. It has nothing to do with Bitcoin and its utility and EVERYTHING to do with geo-political concerns.
This alone proves why gold-backed currencies or frankly any commodity backed currency is a bad idea. If the USD were backed by gold, the value of USD would fall as any newly mined gold would cause the value of USD to drop, forcing the federal government to buy gold to keep value stable. Leaving the value of your currency open to external factors is a poor idea.
Welcome to Economics 101 and the cyclical economy. Periods of Growth/Recovery and Recession/Depression. Blame human psychology.
See above. Turns out long-term value is dependent on turning a profit. Many tech companies have failed to turn a profit for some time. Uber apparently turned a profit for the first time in a decade of existence last year. Again wholly unrelated to Bitcoin and has everything to do with psychology.
I can find value, I just recognize that Bitcoin at least has none. Ironically, you yourself point this out later.
The ability to transmit value is intrinsic to any currency, including the fiat currencies you so despise. Real intrinsic value comes from being able to do something with an item/currency beyond its usefulness as a currency. Gold for instance can be used in various ways and oil can be used as fuel. Even USD can be used as toilet paper or kindling if nothing else. Tell me, what can I do with Bitcoin beyond use it as a tool for speculation or use as a currency? Bitcoin is a fiat currency just like USD, it is belief that Bitcoin has value that drives it value, just like USD.
Christmas light bring happiness to people. That is a useful feature and frankly is the only use for Christmas lights, as a source of illumination they are actually pretty terrible. If Bitcoin makes you happy then mazel tov to you. But as a currency is has deficiencies.
As pointed out by @Chiraag_Nataraj
So
Is negated
How much environmental destruction is caused by cattle farming? There are many things that damage the environment, some of which are tolerable and some which are not. Try asking the American public to give up steak and see how far that gets you.
That has little to do with USD intrinsically and more to do with speculation and a distinct lack of effort building out affordable housing in the US. Inflation in the US has been historically low for quite some time around the target 2% the Fed targets. If wages kept pace with this, it wouldn’t be a big deal. Wages have typically not kept pace so this is a problem.
I very much recognize this, it’s absurd that the only method that will keep the value of my money equal or above inflation is essentially gambling (investing). The loose monetary policy that has driven growth for so long has damaged the ability of the average person to save and actively encourages consumerism. Buying a car a few years ago would have been a better vehicle for storing value by selling it today than sticking that money in a high-yield bank account.
Don’t be so quick to judge the forum members because we don’t blindly agree with you. Many of us are sympathetic to Bitcoin’s goals and aspirations. We just think Bitcoin, not necessarily crypto as a whole, fails in those objectives.
6 Likes
Something I didn’t point out but is significant is that Bitcoin is immune to inflation and this is far from a good thing. The fact that the economy is a Ponzi scheme is an unfortunate problem. It leads to rampant consumerism and the planned obsolescence that Framework is actively resisting. Despite those facts, inflation is necessary for a healthy economy, deflation is not good. When all the Bitcoin has been mined, then what? The large investors/whales are going to want something for what supposedly has vast value, something that without external forces, cannot be devalued. This is Bitcoin’s fatal flaw. It is not democratizing in the slightest.
Buy land, it’s a very reliable, valued and useful.
1 Like
Thank you for putting all this together while the rest of us were too lazy 
appreciate it.
3 Likes
Good sentiment to thanks, but I have a lot of other more pressing things on my mind ~ lazy i’s quite the word I would use
There’s always also the risk of feeding certain disparaging authors. 
1 Like
I can agree with your statement in context of deflation in currencies which are structurally dependent on inflation, such as the dollar.
I don’t see how deflation in a currency that is not based on debt and a continuous exponentially expanding money supply is nearly the same problem. Bitcoin was designed from the outset to run in a continuous deflation mode. If that’s a known to all the players in the game, and Bitcoin isn’t robbing the future to repay the hidden coin-shaving done today, what’s the problem?
If there’s something that I’m missing in my more researched than most but yet for sure incomplete level of economic understanding, please pass it along. But as given your statement doesn’t hold much water to me.
I’ll quote a proponent in the thread
“Bitcoin is infinitely divisible and hence not scarce. All I have to say to people thinking this way is go back to middle school and learn your fractions; dividing a cake infinitely does not mean you can feed a town.”
Is the relevant quote from the article. I alluded to the problem earlier as well.
Those that started early in the game have no external forces to devalue their property and it becomes a buyer’s market. This is fine if it’s cyclical and eventually becomes a seller’s market as it will all balance out at the end. Bitcoin has no external forces to devalue the currency. Only a collective decision that Bitcoin lacks value or the current value doesn’t correspond with reality can shake that. Unlike with a conventional currency where the Fed can print money to devalue the dollar or pull money from the pool to increase value.
How many people today, even with the recent pullback from Bitcoin can actually afford 1BTC? Those that bought in early and those with enormous sums of USD to buy influence such as institutional investors. Essentially the same problem we have now where the majority of wealth in the US is controlled by a privileged few. If I gave you .0002381 BTC, without looking at the current BTC price, what do you think you could purchase with that? Honestly, I’m just repeating the same thing over and over at this point. Stock splitting functions similarly in a way. Split the stock and devalue on a per-stock basis so that more people can participate and buy stock. Keep stock price high and few can participate. Bitcoin locks people out of participating in the market except as wage slaves. How would I grow my share of Bitcoin? Saving it? How would interest be paid? That money was printed to stimulate growth, in other words, inflation. Without inflation, there is no growth.
3 Likes