What should we build next?

As a prospective buyer, I’d like to see a much greater focus on the existing Framework 13 (and 16) laptop models, building up the infrastructure needed to lower prices instead of diversifying into different sectors that have entirely different needs.

You don’t need to destabilize the entire electronics industry from day 1; to be honest, the way you’re spreading yourself so thin from the very start makes me worried you’re not going to be around anymore when it would be time to me to upgrade. At the current price-point, it’s a really hard-sell, even for the people who would be willing to shell out for a Macbook, and Especially with the American economy being the way it is right now. The prices need to drop or else the demand will dry up, and that can only happen with better infrastructure that can only happen with more focus on a specific niche. Amazon started as a bookstore, after all, and they only moved on from books after they’d perfected and stabilized their place in that market.

I get the passion, but if you really want to fix the entire industry, you gotta get a solid revenue stream first, and then use that to plant new companies with new focuses. It’s like a factory game: before you expand, you need to ensure your supply.

The Framework 13 has a niche, and it’s one that’s getting wider by the day as Microsoft and Apple find new and unique ways to shoot themselves in the foot. But the cost is stopping demand. Use your money to cement the Framework 13 as a big name in the laptop industry by making it more accessible, then slowly branch out to new things. Right now you’re priced as if you’re competing with Macbooks, when your market competes with Thinkpads.


The other thing I’m kinda turned off by is… well, I keep asking myself if it’s all just a gimmick. While the upgradable motherboard and CPU, and all of the internals really, being open and accessible is exactly what I want in a laptop, the ports and the different keyboard configurations just feel so gimmicky. So much space (and a good bit of battery life as far as I can tell) is being taken up by the massive adapters, when to be honest, I’d rather get that space back and bring along my own dongle or converter.

I can’t think of any reason to swap the physical ports on my laptop except to upgrade them (e.g. USB 2.0→3.0→C as new tech increases speeds), which- wait now that I think about it, that can’t actually be done with the current setup!

If you were to make the ports modular in design, instead of in shape - allowing them to be removed from their place on the motherboard and reinstalled, using the same kind of high-bandwidth bridge used for the graphics card (that can theoretically transfer more data than any port available today can accept) - I’d happily shell out for the extra cost of that bridge, since it gives me assurance that when the time comes, I can upgrade and keep the laptop working.


Everything in your mission statement and objectives and marketing checks all the right boxes, which is why I’ve gone through like five times picking a configuration, thinking about it, trying a different configuration, looking at parts, checking reviews, and seriously considering your product more than I have anything else in the past few years. I keep having to stop myself from buying one now and thinking critically later, because it looks so cool, but when I look at it critically, I’m worried.

You guys say that you wanted laptops to have the renewability of a desktop, and I couldn’t agree with that more. But your whole business model revolves around your users being able to trust that you’ll be here in five, ten, fifteen years. You’re competing with companies that have decades of factories and capital under their belt, and I’ve seen too many startups stay stuck on the gimmicks that attract first buyers. We crave the certainty of steel, not latches.


So basically, my ideal Framework is a well-tested laptop series that’s had time and love poured into perfecting it, and just has parts made for past models. Even if it isn’t fully “modular”, even if every new iteration has different internals (which I’d want, since it means you aren’t stuck with technical debt from the original chassis), it has the same consumer-friendly features as you’ve included in the 13: not soldering in the RAM, WiFi card, or SSD, keeping open-sourced specs, and designing it with repair in mind even at the cost of a larger footprint.
But instead of being flashy and gimmicky with hotswappable parts that I’d never want to hotswap, I want it to have the same build quality and reliability as the crappy $400 Thinkpad I had ten years ago: it may have been made of plastic, but the dang thing just wouldn’t give up. I’d be more than willing to spend $1500, $2000, $3000 on that. Maybe a bit more to not be made of plastic.


Now the problem is that I don’t know what else to get to replace my laptop, since the Framework is the only one that I’ve ever had actually catch my eye. Seriously, it pains me so much to walk away because I want one so badly. I’m almost considering getting one anyway just to support your mission. But whether I buy it or not, I wanted you to know what’s stopping me from diving in head-first.

(Since everything longer than a paragraph has to specify this nowadays: If you look at the draft logs on the backend, you’ll see that I spent like two hours writing this entire thing by hand. I’d never ask the lying machine to communicate for me, I like communicating on my own. I’m just sad because I wanted it so bad.)

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I, too, hope they aren’t spreading themselves too thin. But keep in mind, no one product can be everything to everyone. They have been around for 5-ish years at this point, and if they want to continue to grow, they probably can’t realistically only ever sell one or two, niche products.

Part of the issue with what you’re talking about there, is that in order to upgrade the capabilities of the port on the mainboard, rather than just swapping the adapter, would require swapping more than the port. There are supporting chips on the board for things like USB power delivery, and data handling. The CPU also plays a large roll in the capabilities of the ports.

Unfortunately, if you were wanting to upgrade down the road to some future USB speed standard, or something entirely new, you’d likely have to upgrade the mainboad anyway.

If they did come up with something where every port on the board used some kind of interposer with power, PCI lanes, etc., I suspect that every expansion card would have to have hardware on it for whatever kind of port it was, making them large, expensive, and probably power hungry. And even then, it may not be possible to implement new standards without a CPU, and possibly other supporting hardware and circuits.

Maybe someone else can chime in, but I suspect this isn’t practical.

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I wanted to comment on this part too: that connector is basically a custom design replacing a PCIe x8 slot. One mobile CPU doesn’t have a surplus of PCIe lanes, and moving the signals out away from the CPU requires special chips as-is to keep them from degrading too much (redrivers, retimers).

Framework supporting Thunderbolt or USB-4 on USB-C connectors already does approximately what you’re saying, or the nearest equivalent, without a new generation of PCIe coming out (requiring a new motherboard and CPU), by giving your external peripherals fairly direct access to those PCIe lanes (handwaving, as I don’t really know hardware), via some intermediate chips. Allocation of some of those scarce lanes to Thunderbolt or USB is why eGPUs work. There’s no such thing as “CPU and motherboard that preemptively supports PCIe v6 and/or USB 5”.

Even on desktop CPUs, the lack of PCIe lanes is scarcity you notice if you’re trying to build a cheaper-than-workstation-type computer with a lot of modularity. These days, pretty much everything already goes to NVME slots and a single full-bandwidth graphics card slot, on most consumer desktop boards.

I don’t know if you’ve been following the company too closely over time, but they are keeping focused on the laptops. The 13 and 16 both have been getting significantly better over the past several years. I was in the first generation of the 13 motherboards, and they were… ok for what they were, but there were more issues. Upgraded to an AMD board a few years later, and a lot of stuff was a lot better, battery life, performance, interactions with peripherals, little BIOS issues, cooling, getting a 240W USB-C charger out for the FW16 finally… And all the new hardware interoperates with all the old hardware (and they have to go out of their way to make that happen). For example, you can install their current displays even on their older Intel boards, can upgrade the BIOSes of the old Intel boards to support the new batteries, etc. etc. They’ve made improvements to the shells, keyboards, hinges even, for the FW16 and FW13… You can mix and match everything across generations (excepting DDR4 RAM and I think maybe one of the wireless cards). This is what impresses me about Framework the most – they’ve been doing what they said they’d do, year after year.

PS. re-reading your post, I guess you’re talking a lot about the FW16 deep dish style laptop. I’m… kind of with you, but only halfway. I love their ambition and design efforts a lot. It is very easy to work on and replace the motherboard, which is part of the point. And I really like them going out on a limb as far as they did. There’s a video of some experimental top-cover things that they did with single-part touchpads and stuff that didn’t pan out… you can see how they might have expected more to come of those kinds of peripherals, or third party interest… which is not to say that more of that kind of thing isn’t coming. You never know the future. Rationalizations are always post hoc. I do think the laptop’s too big, but it’s not unprecedentedly big, and a lot of it comes from having the graphics card in the back like that, which is the one thing I definitely would not consider changing even if I could.

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Product idea: is there a way that Framework designs and sells a new FW13 mainboard, with the latest AMD or Intel CPU, but allowing the use of DDR4? or maybe (but more difficult) both DDR4 and DDR5 sockets on the same mainboard? (with obviously only one type used at the same time ; but still two sockets of each type, to get double-channel memory)
Of course, that question is tied to the memory shortage problem, which should still cover a couple of FW iterations, so I think it is not that stupid of an idea.

This is probably not possible; in order to use DDR4 memory, your memory controller must support it and for basically all modern processors, the memory controller is either on die or on package with the CPU.

On the AMD side, both phoenix (7040 series) and strix point (3xx) only support DDR5 or LPDDR5X.

Intel used to use memory controllers which supported both DDR4 and DDR5 simultaneously, but dropped support after Raptor Lake for DDR4, so anything newer than 13xxx is probably DDR5/LPDDR5X only.

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Perhaps an STL or something that we can buy to store extrra modules, because keeping extra modules seems like there’s no official storage box or item to keep them.

A repairable, upgradable eGPU and dock combo that utilizes existing Framework laptop parts and allows a FW13 to be gaming capable by interfacing with a thunderbolt port. According to Can Your PC Run It, what limits me from playing Steam games is not my RAM or Processor, but just my GPU. I can download Steam games on my OS but it crashes out when trying to play them. I expect that an eGPU would fix this. I know upgradable eGPUs do exist but one that fits the Framework ecosystem would be multifaceted in its usability and would be worth the price than paying for one that doesn’t have the future in mind.

FW13 NKRO (and perhaps RGB) keyboard for us stenography enthusiasts and I’m sure it would be a hit for RGB enthusiasts.

More swag… a Framework shirt without all the emojis. (Sorry I’m just not that into the emojis.)