AMD CPU's, An Open Letter to the Framework Team

General Topics
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8000 series is also still very far away, however with what Intel has on it’s roadmap I would even understand if framework won’t bother to release an AMD version. 14th gen is planned to come in H2 of 2023, with a potential Q3 release, bringing apparently huge efficiency uplifts, thanks to Meteor Lakes efficiency focus and Intel 4. Also the first tGPU, a GPU on a tile of the chip instead of being integrated, with Intel ARC cores means we should expect a huge step in gpu performance, I guess somewhere between RDNA 2 and 3 iGPUs. Since the usual GPU Generation release schedule is 2 years I wouldn’t be surprised to see Ryzen 8000 with the same iGPU as Phoenix, but maybe across the board. So with the gap being closed down, I wouldn’t see that as a reason to need AMD anymore. That combined with Intel’s efficiency and performance claims, high enough to seem Ryzen 8000 competitive, despite the earlier release, I wonder for what reason framework should invest into an AMD version at that point. And with Arrow Lake also coming with huge steps in performance and a Battlemage iGPU it does not look like that would change anytime soon. Intel might even pull ahead of AMD here. Sure, they also improve theyr tech, but Intel is talking about big steps and we’ll have to see if AMD also has some. With RDNA 4 the iGPU Battle surely gets intresting again, but then again, AMD will be on RDNA 4 for 2 years, while Intel’s roumored to step theyr iGPU up again at 15th gen with Celectial. Intel will have to slow down at that point, having finally cough up with their GPU architecture cycle, but they also will be in a very good position, not to forget the performance and efficiency improvements that Lunar Lake is rumoured to have.

Of course, for all of that to happen Intel has to do something they’r not really good at, meet deadlines. However they surely are working on that and improving themselves, so I wouldn’t say they won’t just because of the past.

So with all of that said, I wouldn’t bet on framework releasing an AMD version next gen either. They can’t take advantage of AMD’s better position right now and in the future it seems like they’ll lose that to Intel again, or be on par with them. Developing an AMD version would mean investing a lot of money into the option that is at best on par.

That doesn’t mean I don’t wish for an AMD version or there are no reasons for it.

  • If AMD falls behind they’ll have to be aggressive with pricing and can bring better value, if Intel does not go aggressive on pricing and keep on hiding features behind a premium
  • Framework gets less depended on just Intel
  • Intel will have a rough 2023 and needs to stay on track with their deadlines, otherwise they stay behind and at some point they won’t have any money left to finance their comeback. Framework will need to be quick if they don’t have AMD CPUs in theyr lineup at that point already if they don’t want to sink with Intel’s ship.

For now, if u need a notebook now

  • and want a framework, get a framework. The laptop stays the same and with that, upgradable in the future. And most people don’t even notice the difference in performance.
  • and want an AMD CPU, no matter what, look for a different laptop. I explained why I don’t think we’ll see AMD any time soon here.

If u don’t need it immediatly but soon u can consider waiting for 13th gen if u think u need the extra performance or GPU features.
And if u only upgrade because u want a faster device, but not because u need it, consider waiting for 14th gen. Since Mobile might come already in Q3 it’s not waiting for a whole year and considering the upgrades that 14th gen promises compared to the situation 13th gen is in next to Ryzen 7000 it might be worth the wait, even when 1300P/U series only has to compete against 7035U, which is 6000U series, at max.

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HS is to be followed by 7040/45 U series which are rated at a lower TDP!

13th generation has no new features both in CPU and GPU! In our TDP the core counts, cache, and clocks remain basically unchanged, the iGPU is also stagnant!

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@Shiroudan Agreed, there really is no need for 13 gen right now, the R&D money could be saved for other things…

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Everyone agrees that 13th gen is not worth it and personally I’m waiting for 14th(should bring a big jump in battery life) and 15th gen(big jump in performance over 14th gen), but from a business perspective many might not buy a framework since it won’t have a last gen CPU + the cost for doing it is very small for framework(the differences don’t require a whole new motherboard just small modifications)

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I’m actually very curious about 14th gen, I’m not to sure if it’ll bring leadership efficiency considering it’s based off of a chiplet design, which are infamous for high idle power consumptions.
(IF from AMD consumes >10W at idle)

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It is quite hard to know right now since it looks like Intel might be spliting it between multiple editions(with different architectures for laptop and desktop).
At least that is my understanding, however based on that fact that Intel has truly the most advance 10nm process, when they will make the jump to 4nm it should bring insane performance/battery life relative to the 10nm one(they are now on par for performance with amd which uses a much better process node, what do you think it will happen when the jump?).
I belive that by 15th gen Intel will outperform AMD in performance by 20%(relative to current AMD gen)

Maybe I understand things wrong.

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Personally I feel that the amount of heat generated by threads requesting AMD suggest that people are missing the real potential of a modular laptop. At the risk of being provocative, here is an open letter to those who demand AMD processors!

I want more meaningful customisation than getting to choose what processor manufacturer’s sticker it sports on the case. People diss apple because they launch identical looking computers and mobile phones each year with a marginally better processor. Perhaps we can do a little better than that here? I see the “killer app” framework brings to the table being the opportunity to explore different form factors and ergonomics I am agitating for an Atreus ergonomic keyboard. A feature like this is not something that any other manufacturer offers, yet for the minority that use such things the productivity gains vastly exceed any benefit from changing the processor.

The CPU manufacturers are clever in using branding to make it seem important that you get a computer with their label on the outside (remember the Intel Inside adverts?). Perhaps AMD is seen as the plucky underdog challenging the dominance of Intel, and this appeals to many customers of Framework which itself is a challenger to the big manufacturers?

Nobody has the same brand loyalty for the SSD and RAM for example, even though the choice here makes just as much difference to the overall package. Presumably because the manufacturers of these components don’t spend on marketing to the same extent? Nonetheless I think demanding better x86 processors is like swapping deckchairs on the titanic: surely we should be looking forward to RISC chips like Arm or RISC-V?

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Wasn’t able to find any information on 7040/45 U series, can u link your source? With them coming there actually would be a reason to offer an AMD option.

There is better connectivity support, faster RAM, some Intel wifi stuff, now support for up to 4 Thunderbolt 4 ports (I don’t know how framework managed to achive that with 12th gen if Intel says thats new with 13th gen) and apparently a 10% performance increase. I did not say it is super fancy stuff like DLSS for CPUs or something or that the performance increase is a giant one, just that some stuff is there.
The iGPU now supports now some of Intel ARCs features, like Intel XeSS. But I don’t know if that’s an update for all iGPUs over software or not. Exclusive to 13th gen is support for DP 2.1, I’m not sure which exact specification tough. Sadly that would be everything feature wise, no AV1 for now. Performance wise Intel did not really change much on the iGPU, it’s the same one with a 50 Mhz higher clock. The bigger performance boost here might even come from the support for faster memory, but just to keep it clear, it’s no new iGPU, no additional cores or anything that would cause a big jump in performance.
However, there are new features on the new generation and some, even when minimalistic, performance improvements. It’s just a refresh, but some people might need DP 2.1 or some of the other changes. That’s why I said consider waiting, u obviously don’t have to. And also, if ur not in a hurry and 13th gen frameworks will be available at the same or less expensive prices, why not take the extras? And even if they get more expensive, 12th gen will probably get a discount.

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image
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Here you go!
Directly from marketing slides. It comes out later!

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Intel 4 is not 4nm but 7nm, however it should be on par with TSMCs 4 or 3 nm.

I guess u are not too familiar with the whole CPU topic, because it’s not about being a fan of either side. Like with SSDs and everything else, it’s about getting the best product. And since 11th gen form intel and 5000 series from AMD, AMD is in many perspectives the better choice.
11th gen vs 5000 series: Better overall performance with AMD while also being more efficient (I think Intel had better single core performance), iGPUs equal, clear connectivity winner Intel with the option for Thunderbolt 4/USB4.
12th gen vs 6000 series: Intel was able to close the performance gap and catch up overall, but AMD also cought up with support for USB4 and an iGPU upgrade, that sets it on par with an 1050(ti) and while doing so AMD also increased efficency.
13th gen vs 7000 series: Intel has almost nothing new to offer while AMD comes up with the huge upgrades that RDNA 3 and Zen 4 bring with them and we haven’t even talked about the efficency claims they made with both new architectures.
So AMD actually is the better option right now.

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It sounds like you’re the one falling for imagined branding. What actually makes RISC-V so compelling from a performance perspective? The fastest RISC-V design, the SiFive P600s are supposedly competitive with ARM Cortex-A77. This would be about 3-4X slower performance than current-gen x86 mobile CPUs.

What’s the software compatibility story for RISC-V, or the GPU performance, or USB4/TB4 support? (These are rhetorical questions of course, we know the answer).

The reason that people want AMD CPUs is simple - they’re much better than what Intel is offering. And we can see empirically how wide this gap is now since we have independent reviews of identical laptop platforms from Lenovo and HP’s ultrathin business laptops (the same segment as Framework):

  • HP EliteBook 840 G9 1280P vs HP EliteBook 845 G9 6950HS - these are both respective flagship parts, and we can see the AMD version has both a +23% performance rating and a +23% better battery runtime. Note, that on the HP website currently, the same configuration AMD version is also >30% cheaper.

  • Lenovo ThinkPad T14s G3 6850U vs 1235U - since the Intel version reviewed isn’t a top of the line model, it’s not fair to compare performance numbers, but even with the significantly lower TDP Intel part (15W vs 28W), the AMD version of the laptop ends up with an even bigger lead with a 35% better battery runtime. The AMD version is also 10% cheaper than their Intel counterparts from the Lenovo site pricing.

In both these cases, the AMD version wins significantly on processing power, battery efficiency, and price and the next generation 7040s will extend that lead even more. And that’s not even taking GPU performance into account, where the AMD Radeon 680M simply crushes the Intel Xe 96EU by an average of +88% in game performance, and +135% in synthetics (and again, the 7040’s RDNA3 GPU and Xilinx AI core will extend the lead even more for the upcoming generation).

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The AI Core is exceedingly interesting :0

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I am a huge fan of Ryzen since the first gen, all the computers I’ve built since have been from Ryzen. But as much as I want AMD to come to Framework laptops, I respect Framework for focusing on incremental upgrades like the hinge, upcoming speakers, and 12 gen upgrade. There is so much on the table for this company to experiment with and I think that starting small is important not just to their bottom line but also making sure that things are done right.

I wanted a Ryzen in my new laptop so bad. But once I looked into Framework it became the clear option to me. Mine hasn’t come in yet but the main issues seem to be the speakers, screen wobble, and weak battery life. 2 of those 3 issues have been addressed. To me this is important to flesh out the small changes and improvements before focusing on the big money sinking issue of an entirely different processor infrastructure.

That being said, I think that Ryzen Frameworks are the key to solving the battery life issue and I think if they can make Chromebook variants of this laptop then the next logical step is to focus on AMD. I theorize that it may not be possible to have an AMD module that is the same size as the Intel ones and the team is mostly liking trying to find ways to make it work. But disclosing what they are developing will cause people to wait for more information, in case the AMD modules are not possible in place of the Intel ones. Because of this, it makes sense that Framework would take the stance of Intel being all that they have as of right now.

But this is all hypothetical, AMD laptops may not even be in the roadmap though I highly doubt it considering it is their number one request from what I’ve seen.

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@Shiroudan @lhl The AI core could be a game changer if done right… Hopefully it is done right!

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I have a 2015 year Macbook Pro. I would upgrade to a Framework AMD-based laptop if one were available. I do not like spending money on new laptops every 2 years or throwing away hardware and an AMD-based Framework would be something I’d hold on for a very very long time. Not a huge fan of Intel, sorry.

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I make no secret to my apathy to AMD (the perceived need for another x86) and feel that Framework should be using limited resources to create different form factors and ergonomics to “pump prime” a maker community around their hardware.

In Framework’s position, I would encourage a third party to develop an AMD motherboard, especially if it were such a shoe-in for commercial success as others here seem to think it would be. A second source of motherboards would benefit all users as it would keep Framework themselves on their toes, and demonstrate the potential of open source hardware to create a real market for aftermarket parts and modules.

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Just sayin’…

Congrats, Framework!

Signed,

An early adopter who became very happy today.

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Well done @Jake_Richter for reading the tea-leaves so well one and a half years ago, as it all seems to have come to pass. I agree with what you said then, and whilst I felt AMD was a distraction from Framework’s mission having an alternative processor vendor would seem to provide resilience from vendor lock-in. Hopefully it won’t come across as ungracious to say that in my own opinion this highly anticipated by many addition of AMD was relegated to a mere footnote amongst the dizzying array of announcements on Thursday.

Anyway, so much for AMD. Roll on ARM and RISC-V!

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Just an update to this thread. There was correct suspicion that we would never get what was requested here, as so many companies kinda do what they want. This company actually listened.

It is so amazing that not only can people on this thread can pre-order the AMD models, but, as an early adopter with two framework laptops for my business, I can upgrade both of them to team RED. What an achievement in a world of disappointments and half promises.

BRAVO! this is the kind of disruptive change we need. We should all be inspired by this (and put our money where our mouth was and order these things!!!)

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Right now, I assume the mainboards are going to have ‘U’ series chips given the form factor, even though they haven’t been announced yet. Hopefully that will translate to better battery life and quieter operations compared to my current Tiger Lake model.

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