Any thoughts for the 16 ?
Would love a trackpoint option for this model
Thanks!
Hey @Elliott_Katz with the FW 16 and its already modular keyboard I donāt think you need a redesign at all there. Just get an external USB keyboard with a trackpoint and connect it internally to one of the ports. I will continue with the FW13 anyways because my preference goes to compactness and a plastic black body with reinforcements.
I wish Framework would have taken the approach from the FW16 to FW13 both because of the swappable keyboard and also swappable batteries with the expansion bay module. Sadly it canāt do that and the battery is internal only even with the new model.
I just found this thread again, how is everything going?
Saw that thereās a new body kit, any ideas on the dimensions compared to the existing Framework chassis?
2 Likes
Hey @Jieren_Zheng thanks for upping the topic. Itās on pause at the moment until I can fund the prototype. Yes, I added the second option with a Reform keyboard just to check what people prefer. Because I have a Thinkpad keyboard for the project I will likely move on with it. The one based on Reform will be my next experiment after that.
2 Likes
Ah. I recently stumbled an old thread from December last year. I suddenly wondered if there is a way to modify the input cover to use the key cap material+shapes+switches of a thinkpad keyboard. That would be expensive but could work with the existing Framework chassis.
I am curious if your body kit would work with the existing input cover. Suggesting that because I see that you might already have a scan of the entire framework chassis?
So it becomes 2 parts which can be worked on and immediately compatible I guess.
Not sure if thatās a better idea.
The body kit will consist of 3 new parts - bottom cover, input cover and display cover. The keyboard is not part of the body kit.
1 Like
I had a sudden thought, if we are going to 3D print your body kit using ESD PPS (Polyphenylene Sulfide), how much more money would we be looking at. I was thinking it would be closer to the fibreglass reinforced Thinkpads, but we will be lacking the coating to get the same hand feel. But we could probably keep the body slim due to the strength of the material.
1 Like
Itās about double the price of ESD ABS and not yet imported where I am at but thatās a minor thing since experimenting with a new material after the first prototype is quite easy. The coating itself is a paint rather and I am yet undecided whether I would like to paint the first unit. I think I would prefer a roughened surface like traditional IBM Thinkpads from the X60 era where itās less prone to scratches and visible damage. I have to admit I love the rubbery coating though so will try that too. Think of it as many experiments with different materials and coating so that we have the ultimate choice for any use case of course while retaining that classic black plastic look.
1 Like
Any thoughts on potentially incorporating the prospective trackpoint keyboard that System76 is working on? Assuming they go forward with that and make that part independently available, that might be a more sustainable solution going forward (instead of having people take apart external thinkpad keyboards).
KiCad electrical design of the Virgo keyboard looks like it should have those specs as they work on it, and might also be useful.
3 Likes
Thanks for bringing it up. Itās on my radar since it entered the news stream. I see it as one more option rather than a replacement for options so far.
2 Likes
@Frankie_Wild I realised I forgot to ask. I was wondering for your new body kit, what exactly is the size? Is it comparable to the current Framework chassis?
1 Like
Same x and y dimensions, much higher z axis in the range of 24-26mm to accommodate the keyboard, have a support metal sheet below it and better cooling.
2 Likes
So about 10mm thicker.
I wonder what is the real difference in terms of the Thinkpad scissors switch compared to the Frameworkās.
I looked at the pictures of the clear keyboard.
It looks really similar to HP ones.
Comparing it to a Thinkpad here: Lenovo Thinkpad Keyboard Cleaning - iFixit Repair Guide
It seems that the Thinkpad membrane has an additional rubber layer or something. This might account for the difference when I type on my Thinkpad X280 compared to the Framework 13 (which feels closer to the HP Elitebook at work).
I wonder if we can modify the existing keyboard from Framework (similar to mechanical keyboard o ring mods) to get a closer feel, perhaps even custom keycaps if necessary.
That might give us something close to the Thinkpad keyboard with the Framework touchpad.
With a ESD PPS filament, we might be able to skip the metal sheet and make it thinner.
1 Like
Comparing it to a Thinkpad here: Lenovo Thinkpad Keyboard Cleaning - iFixit Repair Guide
It seems that the Thinkpad membrane has an additional rubber layer or something. This might account for the difference when I type on my Thinkpad X280 compared to the Framework 13 (which feels closer to the HP Elitebook at work).
I wonder if we can modify the existing keyboard from Framework (similar to mechanical keyboard o ring mods) to get a closer feel, perhaps even custom keycaps if necessary.
That might give us something close to the Thinkpad keyboard with the Framework touchpad.
I havenāt used the FW keyboard myself but have tried pretty much any HP keyboard from the past 10 years and I have the same observations. I donāt think you can achieve Thinkpad feel by simply modifying it. Plus no trackpoint as well. The X280 is already on the worst part of Thinkpad keyboards. Try a X230 one and itās a night and day difference. I donāt feel like going below that quality. Thatās why the external keyboard is the only choice for my level of expectations. Or the MNT reform later on. Havenāt tried that one too. When it comes to touchpad I donāt need one when I have a trackpoint but if you prefer it than MNT reform is the way to go.
With a ESD PPS filament, we might be able to skip the metal sheet and make it thinner.
I donāt want thin and light. Had enough of it. I use X230 as a daily driver which is 26 mm thick and itās perfectly fine. As long as itās light and portable thickness is a pro not a con for me. Not having a flex in the keyboard and having more space for cooling is a blessing not a curse. Aiming for ruggedness here.
1 Like
I kinda remember a conversation like that quite sometime back. Thanks for reminding 
I was just trying to think of ways how to keep the laptop thinner.
Can see your point. But my idea was like to make it rugged while keeping it thin and light. So probably more durable and stronger materials (Magnesium/Glass or carbon fibre).
I always felt for cooling, we need more surface area, meaning a different heatsink design (a longer fin stack, maybe one more heatpipe) instead. Like for the X280, you can put thermal pads to the bottom of the case to allow heat to spread over a larger area. I did that for my Nintendo Switch too.
Does the Framework keyboard flex for you? I donāt find mine flexing.
1 Like
Can see your point. But my idea was like to make it rugged while keeping it thin and light. So probably more durable and stronger materials (Magnesium/Glass or carbon fibre).
Thin and rugged at the same time are self-excluding terms. In fact I have seen so many X280 and X1 Carbons with keycap marks on their screens they are the opposite of rugged. Whatās the deal with being as thin as possible? Is it because of aesthetics?
I always felt for cooling, we need more surface area, meaning a different heatsink design (a longer fin stack, maybe one more heatpipe) instead. Like for the X280, you can put thermal pads to the bottom of the case to allow heat to spread over a larger area. I did that for my Nintendo Switch too.
Cooling mostly requires more space for the air to circulate. You canāt solve that with pads, better fan or something else itās pure physics.
Does the Framework keyboard flex for you? I donāt find mine flexing.
I donāt have one yet but from what I read the whole chassis has a certain amount of flex and is prone to damage. Most reviews confirm that.
1 Like
For me, it is actually because it takes up space in my backpack that is carrying many other things inside. I spend quite sometime commuting daily (buses and subway), so being lighter is really nice (especially on my shoulders and back).
But my use case is different from yours. So kinda like rugged enough but not a toughbook for me? 
Keycap marks can be removed by wiping though.
In desktop systems, additional surface area does contribute to better performance. You can see it from tower cooler performance. Also, if you look at fanless systems for industrial applications (dusty environments) or audio production, they spread heat over a large surface area to allow passive dissipation (I think thereās some consumer systems similar to those mini/micro PCs that operate on the same concept).
I think I didnāt elaborate well. Putting thermal pads and using the entire bottom magnesium alloy base as a heat spreader (on top of the existing cooling solution), does work for the X280 during heavy workloads.
So now you have the existing fan+heatpipes pushing air, while heat is being passively dissipated from the base.
So at least with regards to your idea of better cooling, I was thinking of a better heatsink design, i.e. using a bigger/longer fin stack instead of the one Framework is offering, plus maybe another additional heatpipe to allow heat to spread over a larger area while using the same fan to push air through would be helpful too.
On my end, once I compare Meteor Lake vs the current AMD offerings for my use case, Iāll put my 12th Gen mainboard in a case and see if I fit my GTX 950 GPU heatsink then mount a fan (rewired to match the Frameworkās fan header). It started with putting more Intel Northbridge chipset heat sinks, but it didnāt seem that it would help as much. If the GPU heatsink doesnāt fit, maybe some kind of Gen 5 NVMe actively cooled heatsink or even a smaller desktop tower cooler (for passive or active cooling). 
Yes, the body can flex if you try hard, but not really in daily use. The keyboard area is without flex though. Iām using the 12th Gen one with the improved lid though.
1 Like
For me, it is actually because it takes up space in my backpack that is carrying many other things inside. I spend quite sometime commuting daily (buses and subway), so being lighter is really nice (especially on my shoulders and back).
But my use case is different from yours. So kinda like rugged enough but not a toughbook for me?
I am not against being light again if not taken to extremes and sacrificing everything else but thinnessā¦ for me 25 mm is already thin enough. I donāt have a use case where 1 cm would make a difference.
Keycap marks can be removed by wiping though.
I mean permanent ones that can not be removed and you have to replace the display. I have inspected hundreds of them. Literally 7 out of 10 Carbons are like this when kept between or under heavy stuff. Never a problem with older and not so thin Thinkpads. I did inspection for a living for a few months so had a few thousand laptops going through my hands and eyes.
In desktop systems, additional surface area does contribute to better performance. You can see it from tower cooler performance. Also, if you look at fanless systems for industrial applications (dusty environments) or audio production, they spread heat over a large surface area to allow passive dissipation (I think thereās some consumer systems similar to those mini/micro PCs that operate on the same concept).
I think I didnāt elaborate well. Putting thermal pads and using the entire bottom magnesium alloy base as a heat spreader (on top of the existing cooling solution), does work for the X280 during heavy workloads.
So now you have the existing fan+heatpipes pushing air, while heat is being passively dissipated from the base.
So at least with regards to your idea of better cooling, I was thinking of a better heatsink design, i.e. using a bigger/longer fin stack instead of the one Framework is offering, plus maybe another additional heatpipe to allow heat to spread over a larger area while using the same fan to push air through would be helpful too.On my end, once I compare Meteor Lake vs the current AMD offerings for my use case, Iāll put my 12th Gen mainboard in a case and see if I fit my GTX 950 GPU heatsink then mount a fan (rewired to match the Frameworkās fan header). It started with putting more Intel Northbridge chipset heat sinks, but it didnāt seem that it would help as much. If the GPU heatsink doesnāt fit, maybe some kind of Gen 5 NVMe actively cooled heatsink or even a smaller desktop tower cooler (for passive or active cooling).
Totally get your point but again number one factor is air space. In a tower you have that by default so you can play with lesser important things.
Yes, the body can flex if you try hard, but not really in daily use. The keyboard area is without flex though. Iām using the 12th Gen one with the improved lid though.
Thanks good to hear
1 Like
Hi,
in their keyboard configurator sample image iām missing an INS keyā¦ though if the right nav column were shifted 1 key lower (thereās room below for that), it could IMHO sit above HOME.