Oh I am all for an release of the chassis cad, I just don’t think it is very viable to manufacture a different one for a couple couple mm taller hinge. I don’t think clones of the chassis are much of an issue for anyone. It’s not like someone is cloning macbook or think-pad mainboards cause the schematics leaked.
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It is not a “couple of mm taller hinge” just for the sake of it. It is a design tweak to unlock disproportionate number of benefits. Here are the main benefits I can think of:
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We open the door to custom designs of keyboard module built from discrete switches. Rather than anybody with an unorthodox keyboard design having to be confident to amortise the tooling costs of a membrane design over units sold, a new case design would be amortised over every unorthodox keyboard that is sold. Framwork would better achieve their mission of being customisable. Of course the “mechanical” switches would be desirable beyond the unorthodox keyboard community, as the second point refers:
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Better typing feel. This better meets Framework’s mission for class leading ergonomics. We also get the “mechanical” keyboard snobs onboard. I am willing to bet that there is also a big overlap between those who favour “mechanical” keyboards and those naturally drawn to Framework’s mission because:
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Discrete switches mean not having to replace the keyboard module if one key fails. This makes the keyboard module repairable; it is possible to de-solder and replace individual switches. Framework would thus better achieve their mission of environmental sustainability.
I am interested to know which of these trinity of reasons appeal most to readers of this thread, but of course there is no need to choose because we get all three for the price of one! The only cost being a mm of two tweak to the chassis (or additional spacer).
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For myself, only #1 is important, and #2 is nice-to-have. #3 is not important to me at all.
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Might also open the door for users dead set on having trackpoints.
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Very interested in this, will be following this thread. Count me in as a possible alpha/explorer to buy in to test some things out 
EDIT: Also YES to trackpoints. Yes please. Pretty please.
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I guess I’d rather think of myself as a keyboard connoisseur than a keyboard snob, and ardently favoring, rather than dead set on, mechanical keyboards and trackpoints. (don’t worry David E and dossman, no offense taken 
)
As I proffered in 2021, I would gladly trade a little laptop thickness and a little weight to achieve these, for me, holy grails.
OK. So, maybe I am a snob.
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A mechanical keyboard would be wonderful. Hopefully someone can figure out a good way of making it happen.
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An external keyboard, connected via dongle, or Bluetooth?
Laptops are designed to be thin and light, so even the thinnest mechanical keys add thickness and weight.
I think you’re more likely to get a trackpoint, although the chances of either are between slim and none.
Better win a big lottery, design your own, choosing your own set of compromises.
I would be interested to know much depth and weight (either in absolute or relative terms) you expect a “mechanical” keyboard to add, using super-low laptop specific switches? Also, just to get a handle on your preferences, how much additional depth or weight do you feel would be a deal breaker for yourself?
Your guess is as good as any of ours, but if available, would you like one yourself? Should we read the above that you see more utility in, or would prefer, a track point to “mechanical” keyboard?
I used to use much thicker laptops, from 2011, and even earlier, a monochrome DOS laptop, that didn’t even have a trackpad, it was nice having the keyboard closer to me, with no extra space for the pad.
I don’t know how much would change if an acceptable ultra low profile keyset is used, probably wouldn’t matter to me, because I prefer function over form.
For a trackpoint device, I’ve had them on several laptops and never really was able to control the cursor with them. More power to those more dexterous than I. I did appreciate the physical mouse buttons that were associated with the pointer nub, though.
So I would prefer a good positive feeling keyboard.
At home I use an MX Mechanical. Not a gamer, so my usage is mostly typing.
Still getting used to taps rather than clicks on the trackpad, also. Too much muscle memory and not enough brain cells allocated to remember the new options.
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I should have mentioned in my last post this is my current situation. The 2016 vintage MacBook is accompanied most places I go by the Keyboardio Atreus. As you allude this setup works satisfactorily. The keyboard on the Macbook is so-called butterfly switch design which actually gained some measure of notoriety amongst its users to the unreliability, but on the plus side it is so thin and light the penalty of dead weight is minimal.
The problem is that as an Apple user already, I am customer of a firm that already has an acceptable range of thin laptops. As such I find myself hanging on for the opportunity of a laptop with Atreus as a built in keyboard to justify the effort of switching OS. I can afford to be super-picky, and if I can’t get exactly what I want brand new I feel it better for the planet just to keep muddling on with what already exists.
You might have guessed from my hardware choice I am not what would be termed a “power user” and quite happy to keep a laptop for a very long time which makes the Framework mission of repair rather than replacement quite tempting.
I have had a Thinkpad with a point stick a several years ago, I remember it being perfectly usable at the time but perhaps did not really take it seriously as being preferable to the trackpad which seemed at that time to have “won” the competition between these pointing techniques. I now know of course this victory may be just as much due to ease of packaging as to user preference. I do not know how much depth this device adds to the input deck but probably more than discrete key switches would.
Nobody’s going to ask for a worse feeling one! In fairness there is nothing wrong with membrane designs, if they were so bad businesses worldwide would not be inflicting them on millions of highly paid office workers in an environment where RSI and other ergonomic health and safety liabilities matter. In some respects I feel that the better feel is a side effect of more tangible hobby manufacture and repairability benefits.
One reason I put quote marks around “mechanical” in my posts in this topic is because for many, “mechanical” automatically means full height MX pattern switch and is IMO an ignorant marketing term. I think “discrete” is a better description but am forced to adopt terminology that exists.
i apologize for a very small derail, but i flinched at seeing you call your macbook vintage. in preparation for trying to be sure i can have a framework 16, i ended up needing to build a lift assist rig, and to load it properly to validate “can i use a heavier computer with this equipment”, i repaired a mid 2012 macbook pro.
what’s the boundary between ‘vintage’ and ‘archaic’? i’m sure my old apple 2s are deep in the latter category, but there’s a pretty large range available there.
i think this is a valid point; a lot of people get caught up in specific aesthetic or ergonomic assumptions that not all mechanical keyboards meet.
it’s something that’s frustrated me in particular, since all the rush to replicate the experiences of the kinds of keyboards that damaged my hands makes it hard for me to find assistance finding/designing a keyboard that won’t make things worse.
truth be told, high quality membrane keyboards hurt my hands less than any mechanical keyboard i’ve ever been able to place my hands on… but i haven’t been able to actually try low actuation force linear switches for real yet, and i don’t want to build a custom keyboard for myself if i can’t at least get it the right size.
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Interesting discussion, I am happy that we have the opportunity to have it.
My first real job, in 1986, the computer was an IBM 286 AT of some sort, I much enjoyed its firm and heavy keyboard.
Later on, I had NorthGate keyboards.
I guess I am just a fan of such a feel.
I actually don’t have a problem with the keyboard on the 11th Gen, batch 1 Framework 13in that I purchased. I find it perfectly useful. There are some times when I do a stretch of numeric data entry, and for that, I prefer a numeric keypad on the keyboard. Yes, I have tried separate keypads, but then, I just put them away, somehow, just not satisfactory.
I’ve heard of those butterfly keyboards, and when my daughter wanted a MacBook in 2020, I tried to research whether the MacBook Air she ended up with had one, as best I could tell, it doesn’t. She is happy with her device, so I am also.
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When I hear the term ‘mechanical keyboard’ I tend to think of IBM clicky-clacky ones that some people seem to love …
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Fun fact, the original IBM keyboards (Model F) had a solenoid specifically to make more noise because people were used to typewriters.
If you get a chance, try Cherry Brown and Gateron Pro Brown switches – they’re non-linear, but not clicky, and pretty light. With enough use to develop muscle memory, I’ve found I don’t bottom out the keys that much, at least not with much force, when typing, as the tactile bump is close to the actuation point of the key.
Most keyboards give me some mild joint pain in my index fingers. I’ve had the best luck with the Gateron Pro Brown switches on this Keychron K2, second best with Cherry Brown switches on an older similar keyboard, forget the brand name.
the standard cherry pattern switches don’t lend themselves to low profile or lower key pitch, though. and while i haven’t tried gateron pro i have encountered cherry brown and still found it more uncomfortable than high quality scissor switches.
my current “best” for actuation feel is the typematrix someone ended up with by accident and went “do you want to try it?” so I did, and to my surprise it is the least straining keyboard i’ve used… the layout is weird, and the key pitch is still larger than i want, and obviously it lacks a numpad( i have an external attached which sucks but at least works) but the switches are good. second after that is the ancient (found a word between vintage and archaic, go me) macbook pro. which also obviously lacks a numpad and cannot easily have one attached
i’ve stared contemplatively at choc spacing, though… but i’m utterly unprepared to design my own keyboard, and nobody as far as i can tell makes full keyboards out of those kailh choc switches. they always appear to be utterly minimalistic. frustrating. (plus i haven’t been in a position to see how the switches feel without either buying a keyboard i absolutely cannot use due to missing half the keys or somehow arranging for one to be made)
so honestly, what i probably really want is effectively a good full laptop keyboard with 18mm pitch keys. i’ve only encountered mediocre 18mm pitch keyboards for the last fifteen years, though. (laptop or otherwise)
Is this what you are after?
Speaking of “choc” switches, perhaps you will be suited by the MNT Reform laptop? The keyboard uses this type and can be popped out and installed into its own chassis to provide a more ergonomic typing experience. The laptop is however a very uncompromising design for those who value repairability and privacy. We do have a staunch advocate of the Reform here in this Forum with @2disbetter who will probably better champion its design than I can. Perhaps MNT will leverage its undisputed success with the Reform to design a more rounded laptop in future, one that competes more squarely with Framework?
I myself am interested in the MNT Reform, particularly the Pocket Reform, it is ARM based and the Reform documentation page lists lots of interesting operating systems like Genode, Plan 9 (9front), and OpenBSD but not, ironically considering its the one I want, Haiku.
while that is helpfully a full keyboard as far as actual key presence, this makes no mention of key pitch/spacing anywhere that i can find, so i’m forced to assume it’s the standard 19.some mm.
when i mentioned ‘choc spacing’, it’s a specific referrent i came across in research earlier this year, for a specific subset of the mechanical keyboard hobbyist community focusing on an 18mm x 17mm key pitch layout commonly found with specific kailh choc switches and appropriately sized keycaps. but all the people building keyboards for that specific substandard are trying to make keyboards with as few keys as possible (with definitions for ‘as few as possible’ varying, but generally vastly fewer than i actuallyw ant). there’s also minimal interest in low profile designs there, for some reason.
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I like the Reform and I ordered a Pocket Reform as well, but this is more because I really liked the design of the products versus seeing a real need for either. The Pocket Reform has a real need for me, but my own efforts on a Framework Mainboard project are going to make that perhaps moot.
That said, in the beginning I used to wonder WHY Framework went the thin and light route. I used to think that doing so was contrary to their goals of making things last and be durable. There is no question that a thicker case would be more durable, but I think that many on this forum have demonstrated just how durable the design really is.
On the other hand, the reasons for the way things are designed are very well researched. There are reasons for everything that Framework does from a design and engineering standpoint. The sheer complexity of their design here is a huge risk for Framework. The more points of failure there are the more issues you will have, and the costs of those issues are really incalculable. SO all the good ideas in the world have to be tempered by whether the risk is worth it or the consequences of that risk can be mitigated or weathered.
Trying to understand WHY options x wasn’t done is important to really understanding products from Framework.
The Framework 16 is a laptop that is modular like a desktop. It has been engineered and designed to be exactly what it is. What I think you really want is for someone to take the mainboard and make the perfect enclosure you are looking for. Framework’s design and ethos make that totally possible.
I am working on my own pocket computer thanks to this very thing.
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