Ergonomics

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Hello all,

as far as I can tell, this seems to be the best place to post this, although given the tags I have to select, and it is hard to find fitting ones, I am not entirely sure.

I first heard of Framework back in 2021 on LTT. This was the first time ever since my first laptop that I was even interested in the product because of its modular approach. But I was quickly turned off by some of the design, I will explain shortly.

Now, I work for a company that sells the laptops, so I have had them in my hands, and learned more about them. Discovered a few more cool aspects, but my original reservations were unfortunately confirmed. So I am posting this hoping the next generation will improve on it.

I am a long time Thinkpad user, and the problem with those is that the market of the good models is bound to dry up at some point. In terms or ergonomy, they peaked with the T420/T520 models, and declined ever since to the point that it seems to me they have become a brand like any other. To me, that comes down to two points:

First is the keyboard. Thinkpads of that era are the only laptop that I know of that stayed close to the original 85-keys layout. That makes switching between a desktop keyboard and the laptop quite smooth, since almost all of the keys were located relative to each other roughly the same. The T430, my work laptop, on which I am typing this, already broke that up, it removed a key on the right that I do not even know what it is called, but nonetheless used it frequently for window manager commands, but at least it does not hide any of the usual keys behind “fn”.

The second point is even more severe for me. Palm rests on a Thinkpad, until some 10 years ago, had a sloped finish (or whatever to call that) at the front of the hand rest, instead of the relatively sharp edge as (almost?) any other laptop. Not perfect by any means, they could have rounded it all the way and did not, but the difference between that and any other laptop is quite literally pain. Physical pain in my wrists, to be more precise. And it is even worse on the Framework 16 with the spacers, they they do not sit perfectly, so sharp edges (no risk of cutting myself, but still) sometimes protrude slightly right under my hands.

I hope I explained my pain points comprehensibly. I am a bit surprised I did not see those points raised before. There was some discussion of keyboards compared to thinkpads, but mostly aspects of key travel, hardness and the like, not layout, and discussion on palm rests revolved mostly on the size of the touchpad. By the way, I agree that an option for a smaller touchpad would be nice. But I can live with it the way it currently is.

I really hope these concerns are addressed in new models. I really want to say “You do not a good laptop until you tried Framework!” and currently, I cannot. Not to mention that at some point, the connectivity of the great Thinkpads will be a limiting factor. I am, like I suspect everyone else around here, willing to pay good money for certain aspects of a laptop that is not even mentioned in most brands, and I could (almost) not care less about compute specs, as you might expect from a current T500 user. But i do care about painless typing for hours, and I am astonished that I have not found any references of prior discussion on that topic.

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Great post! I’ve only used an older Thinkpad a handful of times, and I do remember liking the keyboard!

As someone who types a lot, and as someone with :sparkles:hand issues :sparkles: I don’t use the FW 13’s keyboard for long periods, and use an external keyboard instead, but I totally get why someone wouldn’t want to lug around an external keyboard lol.

And interesting point about the sharp edge! I didn’t even realize that could be an issue, bc my hand braces act as an extra layer between the edge of a laptop and my wrists. With the spacers & differences in form factor, I can totally see why the FW16 would have a big issue with that.

Edit: Formating

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Not to deny these concerns, and perhaps I’m old school, but when touch typing one is not suppose to rest the palm of your hand on the keyboard. They are held above the keys. This can improve your speed and eliminate the “sharp edge” issue completely.

Hope you find a solution to your “pain” points.

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Certainly not literally on the keyboard, or at least in my understanding, the palm rests are not part of it. But not resting at all, that sounds like biceps work. Either way, though, my motor skills are not such that blind typing is realistic. Not that I need to see each and every keystroke, but I lose precision when lacking visual or *direct tactile reference. By that I mean I need to determine the key without referring to F or J. Maybe a braille keyboard would work. The error is large enough that on a Framework (either model) I currently am often off by one key on the left, even though theirs keyboards seem to be exactly the same size as that of a Thinkpad. Yet something is different enough to throw me off all the time. On top of that, my ability to press a key using my ring finger independently from my middle finger at a typing speed higher than I have achieved by using mostly using index and middle fingers is dubious. I do use it occasionally, but then my hand is usually angled, and my pinky fingers are completely useless.

The intention of my post is to influence some future model. It totally understand there are costs to be recovered from expensive tooling, that this influences unit cost much more than more mass produced brands, that this dictates long a lifecycle, and I support sustainability goals anyway.

But I also believe that great products are not the result of the first iteration of any design process. That real world feedback needs to be collected, and applied to new iterations. And I hope, given enough feedback, that there will be a overhaul of the chassis, and in that case, better place the feedback sooner rather than later. That is why I am even making the effort. The fact that a real community exists suggests to me that there is a chance to influence future products.

I believe that neither of my request would decrease the usability for anyone. I would be interested to know who would be opposed to a front design similar to a classic Thinkpad, and why, but I cannot fathom anyone actually preferring to press the fn keys in order to access e.g. page up/down. An obvious solution to that would be compatible with the current Framework 16: just offer the middle block of a 105-keyboard as a replacement option for the numblock. In fact, that would be the best solution on the whole market. Even better if there would be an option for a main keyboard without those keys in favor of spacing out the remaining ones, so there can be gaps e.g. between escape and F1, between F4 and F5, and the bottom row stretches all the way to the right. But I digress, since I am still stuck with the other issue.

I have a final though on strategy, because I read somewhere else about the ambition to reach normal users. At the risk of being taken as a Tesla fanboy, I think they are as successful as they are because they did not go for the mass market first. Their (specifically Tesla Motors) first “mass” product occupied a niche that had not been occupied and which was attractive to upper class customers, because no other car combined the performance of a Porsche with the storage space of a minivan, more or less, and the range of a normal ICE car. Only two models later would they arrive at something in reach of middle class customers. I highly doubt that would have been possible at all if they had not made revenue and gathered experience with these earlier models. The thing with normal users is, any vendor has almost universally to compete on price. So I think for a company like Framework, it is key to serve a market where this is not the case (as much). So in my view, Framework: focus on the customers you have, and those that are already interested, create a timeless (in terms of mechanical engineering) platform. If it can still be modified in a way that benefits some users without inconveniencing others, it is not timeless yet. But once it is, and the engineering costs are recovered, to the extend that the unit becomes cheaper, it will become more competitive with normal users.

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