@njf I remember your suggestion and context, and I don’t deny the “OFFICIAL” prefix in the title. Actually it is clear to see the title. My suggestion was that the “official” tag could be added additionally for the threads not only from Twistgibber but also from other people at Framework. Now I can see “Framework Team” category instead of the “official” tag.
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I freight forward to the Caribbean (another unsupported region). My provider (IBC) request and invoice even if it comes with one (also, there are no taxes on laptops).
If you guys want logistical support in a CARICOM member state for parts and RMA’s then perhaps I could be of service 
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@TheTwistgibber I see you created “Framework Team” category. As you may know, the “category” is less flexible than “tag”. For example the threads for the blog articles categorized as “Blog”, could also be the “Framework Team” category. And @Kieran_Levin posted some articles for “Expansion Cards”, “Framework Laptop” and “Framework Laptop DIY Edition” categories in the past, and those articles could also be “Framework Team” category. Right? This is a difficulty of using “category” in my opinion.
To be easy to search later, you may want to adjust the following threads too.
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Heh, if you trust me I can forward them to you from California. They are so small that a padded envelope is more than enough for this.
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I could do the same carlos suggested from France if you want. And I just put my order so I can add whatever you cards to the order.
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Lastly, given the increased global interest in Framework, our mission, and the Framework Laptop, we’re seeing a significant increase in attempts to freight forward our product to countries outside of our officially supported country list.
I am pleased (but maybe the Framework team not as much? hehe) to share that I am one of these people. Very happy customer from the Philippines and I had just received my Batch 6 DIY kit a few hours ago via freight forwarder. The entire process took 18 days with no major complications, except for some slight delays due to Omicron.
As mentioned by others, I was fully aware that such delivery is unsupported by Framework and should I proceed, I would be on my own. This and the (relative) lack of aftersales support are risks I am willing to take for several reasons:
- Shipped and with taxes, the Framework laptop I built was still cheaper than buying a similar spec’d laptop locally. My i5/16GB/1TB build finally turned out at $1180 with freight forwarding. A local laptop with the same specifications, if available in the first place, would be at least $1500.
- Warranty service in the Philippines is frustratingly slow and inefficient. It is common for authorized service centers to give 30-90 day timelines and have very limited warranty replacement options anyway. Even if within warranty, devices are often replaced at prohibitive costs unless the problem is a proven factory defect.
- Given the poor service situation locally, there’s not much difference anyway. I am also very careful with my laptops and I typically don’t break anything within the first year of warranty coverage.
- Ordering spare parts from Framework is very easy anyway and I hope to use freight forwarding just the same.
In the end, I am extremely happy with my purchase. Admittedly, there were risks and that kind of risk is not for everyone. Nevertheless, the laptop is working fantastic, I am supporting a good cause and I am saving money along the way.
Thanks, Framework and more power to you! Mabuhay from the Philippines!
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Thanks, @Carlos_Fernandez_San, and @Ilias_Amri for offering to send me the expansion cards.
I would gladly take up on your offers, but from what I’ve been reading in other threads there seems to be an overheating issue with the storage expansion cards…
I’ll wait another month or two, to see if they release a revision two of the module and if not. I will gladly take up on your offer and reach out with a DM.
It’s awesome to be part of such a supportive community ! Can’t wait to see what bright future Framework holds for us
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@Peter being patient is a virtue! Just so you’re aware, I’ve also read some of the threads that you’ve probably seen on the storage card thermal issue.
New cards now come with a thermal pad inside, allowing heat dissipation to the enclosure. Some early buyers have retrofitted these pads to their cards and (as far as I’m aware) have seen performance improvements in line with what Framework is advertising.
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I have a question for Framework.
I understand why you are wary of freight forwarding. However, for Europe, this shouldn’t be a problem, as there are no customs along the way and from last year VAT can be dealt with in one country, instead of each one separately. The warranty is also unified in all of Europe to 2 years. So, in order to avoid freight forwarding, why don’t you open orders to all of Europe, while removing the free shipping option for those outside of the country you operate in? I, for one, would gladly order directly from you, pay for the shipping and avoid freight forwarding altogether. Probably most people too, if that would help them get the their dream machine unscathed.
More information about VAT one stop shops:
Of course, I may have misunderstood this info and it is not applicable for you, feel free to prove me wrong.
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I believe the issue isn’t really the VAT. Yes, there’s red tape, but yes, there’s companies and systems that specialize in sorting this out for you. People knitting slippers in Ukraine sort this out, so I’m sure they can. (True story, I ordered some tank slippers that way. 
)
I suspect that a key is in some other things they’ve mentioned: localization. They want documentation in local languages, AND customer support in the local languages. Their wording has been unfortunate (making some people think that these are legal requirements, some even thinking it is illegal to sell laptops without offering the local KB… wow…), but it can make sense: as a business with limited manufacturing capacity but great ambitions, you might not want to risk getting a bad name because of “poor customer support” due to language barriers or such. Focus your efforts, be awesome where you DO sell, and expand while keeping a good name.
If this is why, then fair enough really, I’d just love some way to know whether my territory is “months” or “years” or “never”. (I have a special case where taking a peek at the keyboards in the Marketplace for hints - as suggested by Framework - doesn’t work, since NL mainly uses US keyboards, not the official dutch standard that no dutch people use and no dutch retailers sell. So… I have no idea if I am being an idiot for waiting, or if I’d be an idiot for ordering a Lenovo or System76 (who do happily deliver from the US) because oopsidoopsie two weeks later Framework sends me a mail out of nowhere saying “hey, you can buy now!”. 
)
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That’s okay, but a big chunk of people don’t need localization, to be able to use a laptop. Framework kinda targets technical savvy people and while in Europe some of them require localized keyboard, others do not (here in Bulgaria we also use US layout as you in Netherlands and I even happened to order a laptop from Netherlands for just this reason:). Why don’t allow everyone that doesn’t need localization or documentation in their native language to buy without needing to use freight forwarders? As long as this is clearly communicated on the site - it should be okay.
I’ve actually asked Framework’s support before about this - US layouts are available in all European countries they sell in. 
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Oh, I know that. But that’s not the issue. Being able to get a US kb was never a worry, being able to get a Framework is the worry. 
Framework stated (after the Germany/UK/France release) that we can get a hint about what countries are up next through looking at the keyboards that are listed in the Marketplace.
If I still lived in Sweden, that would make me go “ok, that’ll definitely be a long while then, so I’ll just buy something else for now”, since there’s no Nordic KB there.
But I live in the Netherlands nowadays. The fact that there’s no Dutch KB in the Marketplace could be interpreted as a “nope”. BUT: since the Netherlands mainly uses US keyboards, it would almost be weird for them to offer a Dutch KB. But I also can’t say “ah, there’s a US KB there, so they’ll probably ship here to NL soon!” for, well, obvious reasons.
Now sure, I could Freight-Forward via Germany or even from the US, but I won’t. I once ordered a stack of SSD’s plus some VR equipment as a christmas gift to my GF, domestic order within NL, and… poof, gone in shipping. But since it was shipped directly from the store I was buying from, I just had to wrangle with their support for a few months to get my 1000+ euros back. If that stuff can happen with direct, domestic, shipping… I’m not going to risk it with a shipping method where there’s no insurance in place. Having 1500 euro of laptop goodness stuck in a void between where Framework can see it as “delivered” and where some third party had it… Nah. Not worth the risk.
For me, best of all worlds would have been if I could have just ordered a US laptop, from the US, way back. I’m fine with dealing with import duties and VAT, that’s what would happen anyway if I order a System76 machine. But I can also understand that this is a business decision on Framework’s side about how they want to enter markets. They may be niche, but not if one compares with Tuxedo or System76. (After all, getting a machine sans Windows is “just” an option here, not the default.) But their “mission” isn’t to be niche. They want to bring repairable laptops to the masses, not just to Linux/BSD nerds like myself.
End of the day, time will tell. My acer laptop is still alive, so for now I’m fine waiting for a chance to order direct from Framework.
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Hence my question.
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I’m not sure if this will notify but I also really want to get my hands on a Framework laptop in the Philippines. I’m not sure if there’s a way to message you directly but I have to ask, which freight forwarder did you use? Do you have any tips?
Thanks!
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If you click on a user’s profile picture by their post, there will be an orange “message” button if you wish to DM them personally, but now that you’ve replied to John, hopefully you’ll get a response.
screenshot for reference…
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I was part of batch 6 and used ShippingCart to forward it here in the Philippines, no additional taxes / payments and they do door to door shipping since they are owned by LBC. Hopefully you enjoy your Framework!
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Just want to ask since where I live Framework doesnt have an established community yet (Czech Republic) we are on the borders with Germany and thus shipping should not be an issue logistically. But I could see some problems regarding the currency we use (CZK), with the VAT and with the weird (QWERTZ) keyboard layout (not a dealbreaker for me personally, but for many here it can be).
So I want to ask regarding an estimate for orders as far as countries such as mine go. Worst case freight forwarding from Germany should not be an issue for me since I literally could drive there myself in a couple hours, but I would prefer to order directly if at all possible. But my patience is kind of running short and from past experiences many products that make it into Germany dont make it here. But Im hopeful my country is close on the list, since otherwise Id likely freight forward from Germany.
Best regards Framework team, you guys do an excellent job with everything so far.
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EU customers beware, including supported countries. If you move, they’ll try and (illegally) dodge support.
Customer service cancelled my order against my will because I was asking too many questions about EU warranties—as I move around in the EU quite a bit. I asked if they could send to Italy, they said no, so I was okay with that. However, the shipping address was in Germany and I could have also provided one in Ireland.
I don’t think customer service is informed about EU consumer rights. When asked in depth, the agent clearly didn’t like being asked about the details and decided to cancel my order by force as a punishment for asking. The conversation was simply long, not rude or disrespectful.
If they couldn’t provide more information, they could have simply stated so and asked if I wanted to continue with the order or not. Instead they forcefully cancelled.
It is hypocritical to write about bad customer experience in unsupported countries, then cancel an order to a supported one simply for asking information.
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Hello @RPS,
This is not a valid representation of your conversation with us in Support and we stand firm on the cancelation of your order. Your citing of EU laws and warranties do not apply to this specific instance and we provided all the relevant information related to our established Terms of Sale and Limited Warranties. Given the information you provided, we will not be able to allow your order to be processed.
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It absolutely is an accurate representation of the conversation. Post the transcript here if you want.
EU Consumer Law has two directives which basically require that they provide basic warranty support no matter the location of the person who purchased the product, including non-supported EU countries. They don’t have to pay for logistics, but they must carry out repairs or a refund based on the laws of the supported country they are selling from. How do I know this? It is part of my work.
Your Terms of Sale and limited Warranty do not invalidate EU law.
Either Framework knows this, and are trying to avoid being responsible for EU-wide warranty repairs or they don’t realise what they have stepped into by selling within the EU.
Simple English summaries of the laws are here, full documents can be found with a quick search:
EU consumer rights
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