[GUIDE] Liquid metal removal & PTM usage

[CPUMiner]

Hi,

First of all: I cant write this post in one single sitting - it will be to long. I will edit the post in the next days multiple times until it is finished. I will delete this part when I’m finished and add a short comment on it.

Additionally, I intend this thread as a “distilled & proven info” thread. The Uneven Thermals Thread is a bit long and it took me quite some time to sift through it and get the relevant informations together.

PLEASE READ THE COMPLETE POST, maybe not just once. Familiarize yourself with the steps and everything because you dont have time to read and understand the next steps when you are in the middle of the process.

Disclaimer: I’m not responsible for any damage to your laptop. Also I suspect Framework will not grant you a RMA regarding something cpu-related, which could end up as a damage from pulling the cooler.

If framework want to take over this topic, prepare official guidelines and everything, just contact me here in the comments. I will happily let the professionals handle this situation.

My History

Batch 1 Owner of a Framework 16 - really happy with it. Then i found this thread Uneven Thermals and checked my laptop.

Yeah, it was already bad. I only had around 14k points in Cinebench R23. Performance in watts was around 35 to 36 watts. When i first unpacked my laptop after delivery in late march I definitly had 45 watt. Sadly I dont remember the Cinebench R23 score.

I was saddened by this quality problem, because after waiting a bit on this problem and browsing r/framework regurlarly i found that this seems to be a widespread issue, but the most framework 16 owners seem to not have found it yet. Also in the subreddit and in the “Uneven Thermals” community thread (linked above) the problem came back in rma’d boards - which sadly crushed my trust that framework even searches for the problem. Combined with the still missing official comment from framework regarding this problem (aka taking this problem into their hand, starting official communication with us customers etc.) I knew that I have to take this matter regarding my laptop into my own hands.

BUT: That was exactly why I wanted a Framework. I wanted a laptop from a company which would not have bullshit like “Warranty void if removed”, waterreacting stickers in their device or a support process which bullies customers to not cover things in warranty (cough asus).

So I started the research process what I would have to do to switch my TIM.

How to detect the thermal problem

All my information is from the subreddit and, massively, from the framework community thread “Uneven Thermals”. Shoutout to @PSierra117, @zachary_stout and the other guys from the community thread.

• Power Consumption is way below 45 watts after a couple of minutes of load. If you have the problem, you will have around 20 - 36 watts sustained watts.

• it seems core 4 or 5 are often the hotspot with 100°C (thermal limit)

• it seems core 0, 1 or 2 are mostly the coolest. Core temp difference > 10°C - I had 20°C between core 4 and my coolest core.

• Cinebench R23 Scores under 15k. I had around 14k with 36 watts sustained and 13k with sustained 30 watts. My hottest core was always core 4 with 100°C when my coolest core was in the high 70s, barely 80°C.

• Press cautiously directly on the cpu cooler (Attention hot). Your cpu watts should immediatly drastically increase.

Feel free to tag me with more information.

Tools to detect - Windows

• hwinfo64 - sensor only mode

• Cinebench R23 via Guru3D

Tools to detect - Linux

• amdgpu_top - shows per-core templeratures and per-core clocks

• Cinebench R23 via wine - runs repeatable 2-3% faster on my manjaro than on windows. Just use the same download from the windows tools list.

TIM Replacement Options

Important! I’m not affiliated with any company on this list. I just want to make the sources available and a bit simpler to find for other framework 16 owners who want to try my guide.

Thermalgrizzly Phasesheet PTM

I bought this PTM Sheet because I’m based in Germany and could not find a credible seller for the Honeywell PTM7950. I’m waiting on lttstore.com to have it back in stock, but that could take a while. The offers on amazon are not legitimate - it seems they all are knockoffs from china and I did not want to take risks.

Honeywell PTM7950 Sources

(Please send me other sources if they are authentic. It is quite hard to find authentic sources for the Honewell PTM Sheet)

lttstore.com

Not available at the moment. There is a comment on the shop page since the last couple weeks that a “restock should happen soon ™”.

Detecting authentic Honeywell PTM7950

Infos from here: igorsLAB Honeýwell PTM7950 explained in detail, BurnIn and fake products in detail and loosely from the internet/reddit/FR community thread.

Thickness of the pad

0,25mm - the fake’s are often 0,20mm thick

PTM vs PCM

China PTMs often interchangeably use the keywords PCM and PTM. Bad… PCMs are like the handwarmer, which store heat via phase change. Thats a reversible action!

PTM’s change their internal structure when heated, once - Honeywell’s PTM get soft at burnin, but only for one time. It melts once, flows into the microscopic holes in the cooler and silicon, gets quite thin (from 250µm to around 15-20 µm, depending on cooler force), and then on cooling it hardens again. But not to the state in which it was delivered.

Important: According to igorsLAB PTM7950 stays significantly more mushy/soft as other/fake PTM sheets - igorsLAB shows the difference in the video. This is quite important because the PTM7950 will not crack internally in the future because of heat induced stress like the other/fake ones.

I dont have any information regarding the behaviour of the Thermalgrizzly Phasesheet PTM, which I bought. I see this only as a temporary measure for my problem and I will definitely buy the original Honeywell when i can get it.

Hardware Tools

• the framework screwdriver ( duh )

• the plastic flat backside of the framework screwdriver.

• something like a oven cloth to handle the HOT cpu cooler. I think oven mitt’s are to thick aka you dont have enough feeling through them.

• some warmth isolating cloth for heatsoaking the mainboard. i just used the oven cloth for this.

little Important things

• Proper burnin will need around ten heat cycles (measured by igorsLAB).

Guide taezea (Difficulty: Easy/Middle?)

@taezea also switched his TIM back in September. Link to his post for now, I hope I can convert it the next days

Uneven CPU thermals! - #153 by taezea

Guide CPUMiner (Difficulty: Hard) - Prerequisite 1 - Software

Linux

• fw-ectool-git for setting of fan speed.

• stress

• glxgears (or some other gpu load)

I think Windows does not have a tool like this atm - so my process is not working on windows.

Guide CPUMiner (Difficulty: Hard) - Prerequisite 2 - Remove Ventilation Plate

Please follow this guide from Framework on how to remove the ventilation plate. We also need to remove the powerbutton from the ventilation plate, as detailed in the guide. You need to reinstall the powerbutton on its own without the ventilation plate.

Important: Please remove the powerbutton as mentioned in my guide before heatsoaking the system. The direct heat from the cpu cooler could maybe damage the powerbutton.

Framework Laptop 16" Ventilation Plate Replacement

Needed end result:

• removed ventilation plate

• removed battery

• re-installed powerbutton

• re-installed midplate for

• re-installed keyboard and

• re-installed touchpad

Guide CPUMiner (Difficulty: Hard) - Preparations

1. Put the PTM Sheet into your fridge (not the freezer!).

2. Install the needed software as detailed in “Prerequisite 1 - Software”.

3. Remove the ventilation plate as detailed in part “Prerequisite 2 - Remove Ventilation Plate”.

4. Remove the battery. Use the power supply to power your laptop for the whole process.

5. get the powerbutton back (you have to unscrew it from the ventilation plate). You have to be able to power up the laptop.

6. unscrew the cpu cooler screws

left side

• metal plate over the 2280 ssd slot

• uppermost left mainboard screw left of the wifi card

right side

• uppermost right mainboard screw directly above the powerbutton ribbon cable slot.

7. unscrew the four cpu cooler screws a couple of turns which hold the cooler directly over the cpu. But don’t unscrew completly.

Important: This reduces the load of the cooler onto the cpu, so the achievable wattage will now additionally be lower.

8. get paper towels and arrange them right around the cpu area. They are there to catch liquid metal droplets.

9. power on the laptop and boot into OS.

The actual powerbutton is located on the backside of the fingerprint sensor and you have to press the super small pin in the middle.

10. set the fans to 1000 rpm (is the lowest possible apart from zero rpm) with ectool.

11. remove the powerbutton. Yes, when the laptop is running. You will most likely damage it with the smoking hot cooler fins if you leave it in.

12. start a cpu+gpu load (stress -c 16 & glxgears)

13. arrange your windows that you can simultaneously see the actual temps and the per-core clocks.

14. remove Keyboard/Touchpad and midplate so you have the open laptop before you. Yes, onboard leds are flashing angrily red at you.

15. put the oven cloth over the cpu cooler part so the whole mainboard can soak up some heat.

Needed end result:

• paper towels around the cpu area to limit the possibility of astrew liquid metal droplets on your mainboard.

• running laptop (in OS) with thermal load

• removed keyboard/touchpad/midplate, so open laptop in front of you.

• oven cloth placed over the cpu cooler area.

• laptop soaking up heat

Guide CPUMiner (Difficulty: Hard) - Waiting on enough heat soak

16. Wait 10-15 minutes until the whole area around the cpu cooler is unbearably hot to touch. We have to do this because the liquid metal is not liquid under 50/60°C.

17. fan rpm to zero and wait until you see the cpu wattage drop.

Please also check the other temperatures of the system. everything (escept the potential dgpu and the non existant battery) should have at least 65-70°C.

An additional value to lock for are the core clocks. I got down to around 1800 Mhz (clockdown because of heat) until i decided to go on.

If you decide everything is hot enough the next steps have to be made in rapid, but controlled succesion. This is because the cpu cooler sucks so much heat away even without the fans.

Guide CPUMiner (Difficulty: Hard) - Taking off cpu cooler

18.1 fully loosen the four screws of the cpu cooler while still pushing on the cpu cooler.

18.2 remove power of the laptop so it is shut off instantly.

18.3 remove blanket

18.4 use the backside of the framework screwdriver on the person-facing underside of the cpu cooler and push upwards to get off the cpu cooler while it is HOT. You dont have much time and because it is liquid metal you have to use quite a bit of force - but too much force means your cooler assembly is NOT hot enough and you would damage your cpu.

19. If you got off the cpu cooler let everything cool down. I could remove the liquid metal with my fingernails (NO METAL on Die/cooler scrubbing).

I repeat: EVERY BIT of liquid metal has to be removed. I also had to remove the white translucent plastic which was the “holder” of the luquid metal sheet from the manufacturer.

Guide CPUMiner (Difficulty: Hard) - Cleaning of the liquid metal

wip

[Alex_Uta]

@CPUMiner I had a look at the steps from “Prerequisite 1/2 and Guide - Preparations” and I’m a bit shocked , sorry.

I’d be scared to try all that even if I already replaced my mainboard with a new one.

I removed the liquid metal a while back when that thread was started and, the steps from this Guide would make me say “Nope, there’s no way I’ll mess with this”.

A while back @taezea shared some really good tips about how to make it easier.

Uneven CPU thermals!

I was away for a holiday, so I was catching up on this thread, seeing very interesting comments and results. I have replaced the LM with some thermal pas I had laying around, and I have 16k+ results again in CB r23, results I had only seen the initial runs just when I got the replacement board. I made some pictures of when I removed the LM. [IMG_2141] [IMG_2142] [IMG_2143] [IMG_2144] I used a bit of brainpower, I ran the machine hot with CB R23 and flipped it and let it cool down so I co…

More exactly, this part:

@taezea

I used a bit of brainpower, I ran the machine hot with CB R23 and flipped it and let it cool down so I could easily remove it, and that worked. Could be a useful tip for anyone looking to remove the heat-sink and do some servicing on it.

Most of the LM ran to the sides and a little layer was left touching around 50 % of the die.
You can see the peel I got in the pictures.
I think Framework is not using enough lm to account for the out flow to the sides once it liquefies.
This would explain initial results doing great, but once the LM runs thin and “leaks” to the sides you get worse thermals and or performance.

Removing the button, starting the laptop with the heatsink slightly removed and everything else would in fact increase the risk of damaging the mainboard.

[CPUMiner]

Hi @Alex_Uta,

I had a look at the steps from “Prerequisite 1/2 and Guide - Preparations” and I’m a bit shocked , sorry.

I’d be scared to try all that even if I already replaced my mainboard with a new one.

Yeah, thats also what I found out in this process and I was also quite a bit overwhelmed, but my 20 years in IT helped quite a bit in coming up with this process.

BUT: I just have anecdotal evidence - Sample size of one. So I was forced to do it this way.

More exactly, this part:
[Blockquote from taezea]

Yeah, I also found his post and tried it this way. Tried multiple times but i never could get my cooler off that way.

Hm. I forgot this post already because it did not work for me at all. But I want this post to be a information dump. If @taezea is ok with it I would rearrrange my post and incorporate multiple (maybe) working processes, so good & filtered information is in one place.

Greetings
CPUMiner

[Alex_Uta]

@CPUMiner

20 years in IT

I think that we need to try to have a guide and solution for everyone, even with less experience.

In my case, I had to remove the mainboard to remove the heatsink. I couldn’t do it with the mainboard installed.

But yes, maybe the framework team can share an official guide.

[CPUMiner]

@Alex_Uta

I think that we need to try to have a guide and solution for everyone, even with less experience.

Yes, absolutly - thats why I’m documenting my work and encourage everyone who also did it. I found that there are a lot of possible hindering steps because of the hardening liquid metal for beginner users.

Sadly i think framework did create quite a problem with their particular choice of liquid metal, because it hardens under 55-60°C. Also, I dont know if we can provide a solution for everyone, because in my case I could not get my cooler off, regardless what I did. I had to do it this way.

@Alex_Uta

In my case, I had to remove the mainboard to remove the heatsink. I couldn’t do it with the mainboard installed.

Could you also maybe document your approach so I can incorporate it into the first post? Also please be cautious. Ripping the cooler off when cold is really dangerous for the CPU because the liquid metal sticks so hard to both parts.
I literally see the dozens of support messages at framework that “they tried to take off the cpu cooler” and something cracked because they tried it cold.

@Alex_Uta

But yes, maybe the framework team can share an official guide.

Yes, this would be the best of all possible options. But we dont have that atm.

Thanks
CPUMiner

[taezea]

As you can see in the photos in the original post, a lot of the LM was displaced to the side, in the moats, there was just a thin sliver left on the die.
I still needed to use the framework tool and twist it in between to get it unstuck, I think because I flipped the laptop upside down when it cooled down, it stuck more to the heatsink than the CPU die.
Because it stuck to the heatsink it almost came off as one piece just a few flakes stuck on the die. Those could be scraped off easily with the framework tool, then some cleaning alcohol and had a naked clean CPU die.
I hope this gives some extra details and context.
And yes it’s just sample size of one, so I guess, it also depends on how the LM is displaced and maybe even the amounts could differ, changing the outcome.

I appreciate you are taking the time collecting the information and trying to make a comprehensive guide! Kudos’s to you!

[Machine]

Framework

^ It says “coming soon”. I still can’t figure out if this will be an “improved” version when it becomes available or if it will be the same the machine comes with already. From the picture/link I can’t tell how easy it would be to install or replace(if indeed it’s a better/updated version)? I guess we’ll have to wait until it becomes available?