I have done some digging and trial and error with AMD’s amdgpu DC documentation and I found booting with amdgpu.abmlevel=0 amdgpu.dcdebugmask=0x410 kernel parameters to be an effective workaround. The problem is that this disables any and all panel power-saving features, and I can tell… my laptop can hardly reach 3 hours of work on a charge in this state.
Have you reported that as a bug? I think this is the right place:
For what it’s worth, I have not observed that particular problem.
1 Like
I actually found the bug there - I will get around the posting the workaround that I found there shortly, because I am not sure I have seen it.
That’s strange. Me and other people seem to have experienced it even at high severity levels, while some seem to be completely unaffected. I guess it needs some weird edge case ro activate itself, or something like that
It has started happening a couple times a day, and my usage of the laptop is if anything less intensive than is was two weeks ago. This is the amdgpu “flip_done timed out” bug. I suspect the system is overheating; I haven’t heard the roar of the fans in awhile, and everytime it happens I have noticed that the ones for the GPU are not spinning. Less than a year old, so if that truly is the case, I guess that’s a datapoint for the “build quality” question of the OP.
EDIT: installed fw-fanctrl and nope, that’s not it - the fans work fine. Having the fan die on my Framework 13 has made me a little sensitive to this failure mode.
that’s more firmware/software bug, though. I had done some stupid things with the AMD drivers on windows, as well. You can’t exactly blame Framework for that. A Dell of equivalence will probably also run you some insane driver shenanigan, one way or another.
Yes, that is sadly the par for course on AMD platforms 
Batch 5, here. Overall, it feels like a nice solid build. I don’t notice expansion card rattles like others.
First display had bright spots and the touchpad panel and spacers not only have gaps, but some stick UP enough to cause marks on the display bezel when closed.
They sent me a replacement display and that was better, but the bezel still pinches because spots (though less noticeable than the 1st display) still show only when the bezel is on. I had to use pieces of cardboard to help give it more clearance to avoid the bright spots due to pinching.
The touchpad was too easy to accidentally click. Just trying to move my fingers across to move the cursor can sometimes cause the touchpad to click (gives too easily), so I “fixed” it by placing pieces of paper underneath. Eventually I just asked FW to replce them (the spacers had pretty bad gaps). After some back and forth on the photos, they wanted me to send the entire laptop in.
When I got it back, touchpad was slightly stiffer so accidentaly clicks were less often (still happens), and the spacers don’t stick up anymore, BUT gaps were still there. Okay, I’ll accept it.
However, when I got the laptop back, the display was scratched! This was the “good” display, so I emailed them back about it. I was told they received it scratched (I felt like they just called me a liar and I didn’t appreciate that). Thankfully, their annoying insistence of many photos and videos helped me prove that there were no scratches when I sent them the photos, so it was obvious it happened AFTER it arrived at their facilities. They decide to send me another replacement display.
This 3rd display - has REALLY bad bright spots on the top corners and some near the webcam area. Worse yet, it’s still there when I pull the bezel off. The bezel does make it worse though.
This time, they are sending me a replacement laptop in advance so I can keep using my current laptop.
Waiting on it as I type this.
So my impressions on the build quality? I feel like it’s no that good. QC (tolerances) is not tight enough yet. It seems at the factory, they would need to pick and choose the right parts to go together to minimize the flaws related to fitment and alignment. This does not bode well for customers if they ever need to replace parts or upgrade since we do not have the opportunity to pick and choose the part to ensure it fits the best of what we currently have.
I wonder if because QC is bad, QA people (who make sure everything looks good before the laptop goes out) is working extra hard to ensure the right combination of parts are put together to give the least rattle or other issues before shipping. This means a lot can get missed, too.
In my particular case, the touchpad and spacers are a QC issue, as is the display/top lid. Because so many issues with bright spots on the display, I wonder if it is a combo issue between the lid and the display itself. With the right lid, the display may not look as bad?
1 Like
I have seen your story with the support on Reddit, I’m sorry, it was actually pretty bad. If my run with this machine was not optimal your draw of luck was utterly horrible. Just to name a few things, my display bleeding is within norms and I don’t have any issue with accidental touchpad clicks. I do have issues with how modules line up. They stick up a little above the chassis, and the keyboard does not line up great with its spacers. But that is mostly cosmetic stuff.
I do have a fair bit of bending on the chassis. The front foot seems to lift up at the left and right extremities a bit, and the short sides of the chassis aer a bit concave. It seems like I am far from alone in this but, as an attenuating aspect, it is hard to notice: you will likely not be able to tell until you bring out a ruler and inspect the feet of the laptop on a desk closely, with a light source behind them. I suspect that the chassis flex is somewhat common, but most people who have it couldn’t tell.
Also, I share your concerns on the last paragraph. With so many modular parts, I wonder if tolerances like this are due to how the sum of the parts you got interact with each other. For example, after shimming my rattly cards with some tape, my laptop is much more silent. I wonder if, with another Bottom Cover, even my expansion cards would be firmer in their stock, unmodified configuration…
I cannot recommend the 16 to anyone if these things bother them. If they only care about the ideology and the upgradability and don’t care about rattles, light bleed, fitment/alignment issues, then so be it. Not gonna tell you what to do with your money.
I just personally can’t live with the idea of a $2700 laptop with all these issues. Something that I am planning on keeping for a long time (which is the whole point for a sustainable, repairable, and upgradable laptop).
The FW13 is probably a better bet. You don’t get the performance parts of the 16, but if you want to keep the dream alive and not feel like a beta tester with your money, I think FW13 is where it’s at.
I cannot return the laptop anymore, past it’s date. So I must live with my regret.
2 Likes
I am in a middle stance about this. Ultimately, what I wish I would have in my hands now is a third or fourth generation Framework 16 from the future, but no amount of money can buy something that does not exist yet. I think I will keep mine, though I did experience a lot of regret and second-guessing. Which is actually very understandable.
Ultimately, setting aside my opinion on the build quality (not great), my overall opinion of the machine is that it’s good enough. However, it’s very bleeding-edge tech and you might be caught in the whirlwind. I think I could give a go for this laptop for personal use, but for things that require a ton of reliability and timely support like running a business… my vote is stick with the trusty horses, the likes of a Mac or a ThinkPad. Or even a Framework 13!
I mostly hope that 3-4 years down the line a much more refined iteration will be for sale. Framework does have a tendency to iterate and polish their lineups through the years. I really want to see the day where a Framework 16 launch will be met with the same enthusiastic press and user reviews that the AMD version of the 13 enjoyed this year.
I’ve put my thoughts here, and since support asks for photos and videos, I decided to just make a video with the explanation so I no longer have to type out a long email.
5 Likes
I can feel your disappointment and it is sad to see. I wish I had something to suggest to you but I don’t know what to tell you.
I hope framework takes a good look at this and decide for themselves if this is normal or not and what they have to do at this point to improve the situation short term and long term.
For the fit and finish/cracks/rattle I don’t know what framework has been doing for the past 6 months. It’s obvious since the first reviews came out that there needs to be some improvement. The solution is also obvious and has been for a long time: they need to design a part that covers the full bottom section and includes the trackpad without the need for spacers. I am sure many will be happy to just buy a new part from the marketplace so Framework can even make money out of selling these parts. Why they have not yet done that is beyond comprehension.
The drawback of having one more part in the inventory just seems ridiculous at this point in comparison with the issue. Just that one improvement would have fixed 50% of all the complains.
For the screen bleeding, Framework needs to investigate. Is the issue the level of quality of the supplier ? is it an issue with the design and the need for a separate bezel? only Framework can answer these questions.
Maybe Framework was just too ambitious for a first generation of the FW16 and they are now paying the price. Too many separate parts. Too much complexity. Too many finish issues.
1 Like
These are my thoughts as we approach the 10 month mark of my late batch 1 FW16:
The Good
- The system exterior is very rigid and has survived daily life without issue.
- The expansion card system works well even though I use the same expansion cards most of the time.
- The modular system allows for field repairs. This is especially nice on a first generation product with a lot of “technical service bulletin” style issues such as the keyboard flex one.
- Field upgrading the camera module to the “generation 2” revision was a nice experience.
The Bad
- Customer service tends to require a lot of time and effort as you end up having to document various test scenarios via photos, system logs, and video. Also, the resolutions provided by technical support often fails to address the issue as the issues tend to stem from unresolved quality escapes.
- AMDGPU stability on Arch Linux has been less than stellar since the Linux 6.12 / BIOS 3.05 release.
The Ugly
- The keyboard and track pad area badly need a redesign. The modularity was an interesting idea that doesn’t work well due to weak manufacturing tolerances leading to rough edges and gaps in the finish. I also tend to get a lot of “nuisance clicks” (failed palm rejection) from the track pad while typing.
- The screen area seems structurally weak which has lead to some permanent wear marks on the screen from the keyboard rubbing against the middle of the screen. I did not report this to technical support because I am tired of all of the documentation required to get a fix that has a high probability of not resolving the issue.
- Thermals are complete trash due to the initial liquid metal design being complete trash. There is apparently a field installable heat sink revision in the works that can’t come soon enough. I didn’t bother reporting this to technical support because of the upcoming field repair kit.
- The device still will not connect to my iPhone 15 via USB-C despite reporting the issue back in April 2024. Two firmware versions have come and gone that have added major features (e.g. battery health management) without resolving the USB-C issue.
- Overall, I’m not sure that the FW16 was worth the “price of admission.” A premium price should result in a premium product with premium level support. With my Framework purchase, I feel like I received a flawed Kickstarter prototype with sub-par technical support when it came to resolving the various manufacturing defects.
A side note: I wish Framework would go back to providing us with regular (monthly) updates on resolving the various hardware and software issues present in the FW16. This would help set expectations on getting the current batch of quality escapes fixed and also assist technical support by eliminating “nuisance cases” for known issues that can’t be fixed immediately.
4 Likes
Just out of curiosity, is the iPhone 15 via USB-C worked around by using USB-A instead?
I think this might be a USB 3 vs USB 2 issue. If you can get the FW16 connecting to the iPhone 15 via USB 2, it might be OK. Another problem might be USB PD, in which case putting a USB 2 hub between the FW16 and iPhone 15 might help. This is just a work around.
@Techie_Zeddie
I think you are unlucky. My FW16, batch 16, does not have the light bleed that you are seeing.
I tested with this to get the black:
It seems surprising that your replacement laptop has the same light bleed problem.
At least FW support are trying, i.e. first sending you a new display, then sending you a new laptop. From their perspective, what else can they try?
1 Like
In my experience, the iPhone 15 will only connect if USB PD is unsupported on the connection (e.g. a connection that involves a “Type A” connector). The problem is caused by the FW16 PD controller getting confused during the negotiation process and resetting the connection. This results in the connection resetting itself roughly every 1-2 seconds.
I used to have a dock that did the same as your iPhone 15. connection resetting itself roughly every 1-2 seconds. Recently the dock had a firmware upgrade and it works fine now.
I agree with you, there is some bug in the FW16 PD controller causing the problem.
In linux “sudo lsusb -v” causes the usb 3 chip to die, until the next reboot. So there are definitely bugs in the firmware of those usb chips.
My impression of the FW16 AMD:
Good Points:
- Display, Sound.
Bad Points:
2) USB compatibility problems with some products.
a) E.g. Iphone 15, some docks, nvme enclosures, vr headsets.
The USB problems is my biggest gripe with the laptop. Hopefully future BIOS/Firmware will improve the situation.
Nice to have:
or would like improvement:
-
Keyboard
a) The arrow keys size. The left and right arrows could be full size keys.
b) Needing to press Fn to get HOME, Page UP/DOWN, END. Separate keys would be better. Maybe an option for a half width keypad, just for the HOME, Page UP / DOWN, END keys.
c) Does not work properly in power save mode - key repeats, missed keys. -
Wakeup
a) I have had to disable wakeup from everything apart from the power key due to unexpected wakeups while the lid is closed.
b) When trying to track down the wakeup causes, there is no way to know which device caused the wakeup. I will try to submit some patches to the open source EC code to fix this if I get the time. -
Support
Raising an issue with support results in lots of questions and takes a lot of end-user’s time to answer. Anything that support can do to streamline this process would be great.
My recommendation in this area is to have better BIST (built in seft test). So all the user needs to do is submit a single auto-captured report and send it to support.
A good example of this is the RAM chip shuffle. The BIST should just be able to tell which RAM chip/slot is the problem and not report just “one of the RAM chips is faulty” without knowing which one.
1 Like
Watching this video really hurt. I am really sorry to see how horrible your experience was. It really does put things in perspective.
Every unit seems to be an artisan good. I can already tell from your video that your replacement unit does not have some of the issues I have with mine, but it has a much worse display than mine. Bad enough that, at the end of the day, I would honestly prefer my unit, albeit slightly bent and flawed. Your replacement unit also has very bad rattling on the spacers that mine lacks. What??
In your place, I would probably pocket the loss and sell it. This is really not worth your mental health, and the value will keep going down as the time keeps going. It really sucks and it’s unacceptable, though. Absolutely agree.
I still do, however, hold out hope and trust that the future models will be better
2 Likes
I also really feel for you as you have been a notable contributor on this forum which allowed us all to watch your excitement for this laptop turn into disappointment and utter frustration, clearly audible in your video. I admire your restraint in not just screaming into the microphone, and even somehow maintaining the composure to not completely write off the entire company as a complete failure run by the worst people in the world who are laughing at your pain. This is a big dollar purchase that has gone very wrong, and I really hope they do eventually make it right, and I choose to believe (based on absolutely nothing) that they will eventually. It just seems to me that they still do not have the support infrastructure to deal with the mixed success of this product, and we’re seeing that play out in your story, as well as others.
And that really sucks. I get to say that as one of the lucky ones who got a perfectly fine working unit (and don’t worry, I don’t feel attacked!). My screen does not look like that and my thermals are fine, though I do have some pretty bad touchpad spacers. I don’t see that as something even worth addressing as it’s unlikely they even can without design changes in components in addition to the spacers themselves, so I think that’s just going to go down as a quirk of the first generation, but I understand wanting better for the price paid.
I do think you are owed something here, though, and I really hope this isn’t the end of your story. I think your video will help, though it’s unfortunate we’re at the point where you need to publish a video to get results. Again, I don’t think this is how things will always be, and I do hope your story gets a better ending one way or another along the way.
7 Likes
Agreed here, although I’m somewhat afraid it does not stop there. From the point of view of the Support team, I struggle to come up with ways that they could have done better. They eventually went with the nuclear (and expensive) option of sending out an entirely new laptop, and it still came out very flawed. This seems to point at something much more serious: the production tolerances and QC/QA are so terrible, that getting a bad unit is way more frequent than it should be.
That is, if RMAs get new devices. It would be very terrible if replacement laptops were just units that were returned, or B-stock of some kind. The best way to lose a customer after begrudgingly agreeing to a replacement after much turmoil is to send them a known flawed unit that has a worse level of QA. We have no way to know, but seriously, what’s with all the replacement units being this bad? Either the quality control out of the factory Is astonisighly bad, or replacement units are returned / refunded laptops, whichever is worse.
Another problem that I have spotted both in their experience, mine and another user’s I have talked to is the repair center. The repair center is an absolute pain point. They are a third-party repair shop, known for serious delays, lack of communication, sloppy “repairs” (they saw the issues on my unit and “reduced” them by just adjusting some screws… gee thanks, this is totally what I wanted an entire month with no tracking or uninitiated communication for) and, in some cases they damage devices. Zeddie’s laptop came back scratched, someone else’s laptop came back with a bent lid. At this point I would rather keep a slightly defective device than have it pass through that horrible repair center again.
I’d say that there is a 50/50 split here between the support infrastrutture needing a rework, and the fact that even the best customer support can do little to aid with a product that is fundamentally flawed, if an user is picky enough to tell.
2 Likes