Torn between Framework 12 for sketching and Framework 13 for ext monitors and CPU power

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Hi all

I am seeking some advice that is probably subjective. I wonder if I would benefit from a reflective/conversational process to decide which laptop to go for.

A quick preamble: I love the ethic of Framework; being able to replace motherboards in laptops should have been done ten years ago. I’ve had a few Dell XPS devices, but I think any eco-friendly or right-to-repair stuff they do will be entirely performative. Big corporates just aren’t in a position to genuinely aim for ethical concerns. I liked Dell’s Project Sputnik effort, but this seems to have been wound down.

I’m a software engineer. I have a MacBook Pro for work, but I do a fair bit of tech stuff outside of my job. I currently have an aging XPS 15 (Intel Core i7-9750H + 64GB RAM); the battery is knackered, a key is falling off, and I have an on-screen keyboard to make the Shift keys work. Plus it no longer works with my docking station. It’s done 5-6 years, and well due for replacement. It’s unsaleable, so I’ll keep it as a good spare until it floats off to the tech grave. :ghost:

I miss my XPS 13. It was an excellent weight and size. However I ran it too hot, and I melted the motherboard. The Framework 13 would be the natural replacement. However I am greatly annoyed that the Framework 12 is much more versatile, and I love the stylus idea, plus the Yoga-style tent and fold-back sketch/canvas modes. My ideal would be the stylus-approach of the 12 with the power of the 13, but I realise that’s not an option currently.

I am leaning to the 12, as I would absolutely love to be able to stylus-sketch in portrait and landscape configurations. Interestingly, the Intel Core i5-1334U outperforms the i7 I have in my current laptop, at least based on CPU Benchmark numbers. Ideally I would like to daisy-chain my new laptop to two external monitors, maybe one 4K and one 1080p, but AI tools suggest that Intel UHD Graphics is fairly rudimentary, and I’d be more likely to run this arrangement with one 4K via USB-C, and one non-4K via HDMI. One docking line is ideal, but two is hardly a bother.

I am partly minded to order the 12 with a minimal RAM and NVMe, and then upgrade those once I am satisfied that sketching works, the screen auto-rotates with zero set-up, and performance is not noticeably worse than my ancient i7. How have folks found the Framework laptops in this regard? In my view, it’s the niggles that get you: my XPS 15 won’t completely sleep in my rucksack unless I’ve quit heavy applications, which rather defeats the purpose of sleep mode. Maybe this is a Mint problem, but these days I am less willing to hunt down Linux weirdnesses; I just want it to work. Windows is out of the question for me.

I realise that the screen-size of the 12 is going to take some getting used to. I’ve not used an XPS 13 for a couple of years, but on balance I think my XPS 15 is rather heavy, and the Framework 16 is the same. I carry laptops a lot. The screen-size matters less when I’m at home, since I’ll use external monitors, but I’ll it out of the house too. Perhaps I could get an external LCD monitor, at the cost of carrying more weight!

Summary: Linux power user struggling to decide between Framework 12 and 13. Leaning to the 12 for sketching. What did you go for? Or for the very fortunate, did you get both? How have you found either device on Linux?

Related: Should I switch from my FW13 to a FW12?

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I was asking the same question a few months ago (you linked my thread in your post) so ill try to give some advice from the same position.

Firstly id ask you which one is more valuable to you. Performance vs Form. If you literally cant do what you want to do (or do it efficiently) without the power of the 13 then the 12 is 100% out of the question immediately. It seems like you are preferring the 12 so if the performance of either is fine then thats the one id get.

Another option, since it sounds like you really want the 12 if it only had more power, would be to reuse your old laptop. You could just keep the old powerful one plugged in to an external monitor, power, and keyboard all the time and use it when home, then just have the 12 when you want to draw. If you needed the extra power outside then you could just remote into the old one.

I still have my 13 and havent gotten a 12 yet. Im mostly just waiting for the cracking issue to get absolutely fixed (from what i understand, they fixed the bottom but not the top and are still sometimes accidentally shipping out old bottom covers) before i switch. Im also not sure whether single channel ram on the 12 is fine anymore with the ram shortage and dont really want to give up my 48gb. I still plan on switching since i also like the form of the 12 and dont need the performance that much, but at this point i might just wait for a performance upgrade since it probably wont be too long until we get one (dont listen to me i have no clue).

Hope this helped!

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Super, thanks @Parker. Any comments are useful to give my brain the foil it needs.

I agree, I could get the FW 12 and then carry on using my XPS 15. Since I was thinking of getting the FW 12 and FW 13 in parallel, the first idea is more cost-effective, and not less convenient.

Yes on the question of CPU power. I like to keep the laptop itself as clean as possible, so I tend to install a virtual machine system, and then run software in VMs based on what I am doing. This suits my security-oriented brain, but does come with a CPU overhead. However, unless there is something I don’t understand about CPU comparison, it looks like the i5 in the 12 will outperform the i7 in my old knacker. So, crossed-fingers, the new system should still be more responsive.

I use a heavyweight Java-based IDE (specifically the WebStorm series) but the performance is fine in my i7 (even inside a virtual machine). Mostly the limiting factor is RAM, but if I bump up to 48GB, I doubt I would outgrow that even with several machines running.

Again on the question of speed, either of the FWs has the advantage of running DDR5; my current machine is limited to DDR4.

The cracking issue is worrying. I perhaps should wait a few months to see if they go ahead with a new top-cover design.

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The design of the Framework Laptop 12 & Laptop 13 are vastly different for good reason. Yes there is a little bit of overlap, however there is large enough difference on paper which is a key reason Framework decided it was next at the time in its product development.

Here is the short version: The Framework Laptop 12 != Framework Laptop 13.

In this scenario, the question of priority matters. All the other things are just topping on the proverbial cake. Is it more important to draw and use a stylus OR to have raw computing power?

Draw: Get the Framework Laptop 12 and just understand that it will possibly underperform based on the numbers on paper vs. the Dell machine.

Performance: Get the Framework Laptop 13 and find another avenue to draw with (like an older model iPad) Integrating with the Apple eco-system is not new as the work computer is a MacBook.

Setting up the Dell at home/work and remotely accessing the machine is a fine idea. Keep in mind that RAM prices are just ridiculous right now too; so that 32gb or 48gb stick of RAM alone is going to cost a big percentage of the machine.

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It depends what kind of software engineer you are but running single channel memory would be a deal breaker for me when considering the FW12, especially if you plan on using a VM or multiple VMs inside it. But you may know more than me in that regard. As far as specs and performance goes, I’ve had an i7-1165G7 with 64GB of DDR4 on the FW13 that runs Ubuntu (currently 24.04LTS) since Dec 2021 and I continue to be impressed by what it can do. To list a few:

  • I use it for CAD via FreeCAD, Cura for slicing and have my 3D printer hooked up to a Raspberry Pi running OctoPrint,
  • I use Moonlight to remote access Steam games from my husband’s Windows desktop machine (which isn’t perfect but is definitely playable enough for me and since I maxed out my RAM, even though it’s DDR4, I know that what’s slowing me down from running Steam directly is my CPU),
  • there’s tons of scripting interfaces but I use RStudio for proteins related ML coding and plotting (I haven’t been slowed down by the DDR4 memory when it comes to running intensive scripts).

I haven’t felt the need to upgrade my motherboard yet but I will probably swap to AMD when that time comes. As far as sketching goes, nothing beats the feeling of paper to me but I do use an iPad for sketching at times and I’m a bit spoiled by the feel of that, even though the lack of repairability bothers me. I am hoping for a touchscreen option for FW13 but I’m happy with using the screen that I have until that option is available (touch is built into the motherboard so I’m hopeful that will happen).

As far as my recommendation, you should choose whatever suites your workflow and what your priorities are.

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Well in that case i see no reason not to get the 12 over the 13. If you already know that the old machine has enough performance, and the 12 will be an upgrade, then the 12 will also have enough performance. The lower ram max and single channel could be a little worse, but i would make sure you actually use all that ram since its super expensive right now and you probably dont want to buy much more than you need.

I still might wait to see how the cracking issue comes along. Support has been decent at getting replacement covers out (even if it takes a while and isnt fixed…) if you do want to buy now and it does end up cracking.

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Super, thank you @pkunk, @M_Mothersole, @Parker for the thoughts. It is all most useful food for pondering.

I am not an expert on RAM speed and how it affects machine performance. On the one hand, I have the DDR4 → DDR5 upgrade, but on the other hand, I’d have a dual-channel to single-channel downgrade. As best I can tell, my XPS 15 is running in dual channel (though the Linux tools do make it hard to be sure).

To make things more complicated, while I have 3200 MT/s RAM installed in my old knacker, it seems to be running only at 2667 MT/s anyway (that may be all my motherboard will support). So even if my RAM is not the speed bottleneck in my system, I’d wager that a doubling of RAM speed to 5600 MT/s is not going to go unnoticed.

And yikes! the bump from 32 GB to 48 GB in the FW 12 configurator is £300, with the 48 GB coming in at a princely £700 total. I don’t mind a bit of AI, but lordy, I don’t love the second-order effects all that much. :pouting_cat:

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