I’m worried when I suspend my laptop, put it in my backpack and 1h later find it almost burning my hands as if it wasn’t really suspended. Then I was really frustrated when I was forgetting to plug the laptop overnight.
I say “was” because for the first time in 20 years using Linux, I’ve turned on hybrid sleep on a laptop. When unplugged, I suspend the laptop for 2 hours and then it hibernates.
It takes more time to resume since it has to boot but at least I’m not on edge anymore.
I think that if it gets that hot, it isn’t properly suspended. And indeed, given that Lithium-ion batteries are apparently quite temperature-sensitive, also not good for the longevity of the product. At those power levels, it should be able to ventilate well.
There seem to be frustratingly many things that can lead to suspend state not be properly entered, or lead to high power use. I’ve seen on this forum:
nvme ssd drives use excessive power during suspend (nvme.noacpi=1 seems to help in those cases)
higher power use due to a previously crashed kernel module
tricky setups with wake-up triggers, making the system wake up almost immediately from suspend (and hence not being suspended when placed in the bag)
I haven’t seen suspend problems in my setup lately, but some unexpected update could unfortunately change that. The current power usage means that on a full battery, the system can easily survive for 2 days suspended; going up to about a week with USB-A and HDMI removed. It’s not great, but workable if otherwise your laptop has a habit of being plugged in overnight.
To some extent, the power problems seem to stem from “modern suspend” s2idle, which makes for very responsive systems, but in turn for rather high power usage and apparently, because the system is hardly asleep at all, a state that is very sensitive to other factors to change its power use. I don’t think Framework can be quite blamed for that and given the possible causes for increased power use, it looks difficult to give widely applicable advice/tips.
They should warn people that expansion cards that are not just USB-C cause significant power use even during suspend, though!
Hello, I was playing around with turbostat and the s0ix debugging tools provided on 01.org and noticed some failures when testing s2idle.
[ 880.618452] PM: Suspending system (s2idle)
[ 880.618455] printk: Suspending console(s) (use no_console_suspend to debug)
[ 880.619538] wlp170s0: deauthenticating from 94:83:c4:1f:4d:62 by local choice (Reason: 3=DEAUTH_LEAVING)
[ 881.200712] PM: suspend of devices complete after 581.211 msecs
[ 881.200717] PM: start suspend of devices complete after 582.169 msecs
[ 881.200720] PM: suspend devices took 0.582 seconds
[ 881.215569] PM: late suspend of devices complete after 14.843 msecs
[ 881.241747] ACPI: EC: interrupt blocked
[ 881.308356] PM: noirq suspend of devices complete after 92.029 msecs
[ 881.308393] ACPI: \_SB_.PR00: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.308398] ACPI: \_SB_.PR01: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.308400] ACPI: \_SB_.PR02: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.308402] ACPI: \_SB_.PR03: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.308403] ACPI: \_SB_.PR04: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.308405] ACPI: \_SB_.PR05: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.308406] ACPI: \_SB_.PR06: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.308407] ACPI: \_SB_.PR07: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.308413] ACPI: \_SB_.PC00.RP10.PXSX: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.308415] ACPI: \_SB_.PC00.HECI: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.308417] ACPI: \_SB_.PC00.PEG0.PEGP: LPI: Constraint not met; min power state:D3hot current power state:D0
[ 881.308422] ACPI: \_SB_.PC00.GNA0: LPI: Device not power manageable
[ 881.310108] PM: suspend-to-idle
[ 893.693629] Timekeeping suspended for 11.610 seconds
[ 893.693860] ACPI: PM: Wakeup unrelated to ACPI SCI
[ 893.693863] PM: resume from suspend-to-idle
[ 893.696003] ACPI: EC: interrupt unblocked
[ 894.122699] PM: noirq resume of devices complete after 426.935 msecs
[ 894.126365] PM: early resume of devices complete after 3.551 msecs
[ 894.642587] PM: resume of devices complete after 516.134 msecs
[ 894.651955] PM: resume devices took 0.525 seconds
[ 894.651973] PM: Finishing wakeup.
[ 894.651975] OOM killer enabled.
[ 894.651976] Restarting tasks ...
I am curious if these \_SB_.PR0x power management failures mean anything to anyone?
I am guessing these are platform features that are not suspending when the machine is put to sleep causing the suspend power drain.
Yup…I’ve been there with the frustration. All very good questions.
All I can say is: Some people here on the forum confused “enthusiast oriented machine” with “wanting to tinker”. In my book, the two are not one and the same.
I’m doing a new run of benchmarks of the suspend time power usage here, using batterylog and my homegrown solution. Hopefully I should be able to corroborate or infirm other results people might have had here. So far I have found those results to be interesting:
Also, reading this thread is kind of painful for two reasons. One, it’s kind of sad how much trouble everyone is having with their battery life. I get it, trust me, I’m in the same boat. But second, it’s kind of a shame it goes a little off the rails…
I don’t think it’s productive to beat the Framework Team over the head with this kind of stuff. They’re working on those issues, maybe not fast enough for your taste, but keep in mind this is a young startup, I don’t think it’s fair to expect them to produce a laptop that has the batter life of a Carbon X1…
Anyways, next up is results, I’m hoping to get something more solid some time this week. My assumptions are that, as usual, the expansion cards are the main culprit, that deep sleep saves a lot of power, and that nvme.noacpi=1 won’t have an effect on my laptop. Apparently, that setting might be specific to s2idle!
See also:
Update: tests are not complete just yet, but first results are trickling in. So far I am confirming the results that the USB-A modules take almost half a watt on standby (500mW for the first, 370-380mW for the n+1), which is much worse than what they do on idle.
It seems like something kicks those cards into high gear on suspend, it’s quite bizarre. I’m going to run more tests to confirm this, with more USB-A cards. I’ll also run the tests with all the other cards I can lay my hands on, but it really seems like the main culprit right now in my fluctuations in suspend battery performance…
I’m actually considering creating a whole new thread specifically about expansion card battery use during suspend, since this one is becoming quite long…
First off, here, -m freeze doesn’t enter a deep sleep state, at least not as power-saving as s2idle or deep anyways, so it’s normal you’re seeing bad results from this.
But more importantly, I don’t actually understand how or even if turbostat can give you power usage results at all. Normally, the CPU is basically stopped on deep suspend, you only deliver power to the memory to keep that alive, and then resume processing tasks in the CPU once the computer resumes from sleep.
How can turbostat tell anything that happened then? It’s basically suspended… or is it using some other tricks there?
Also, has anyone here actually tried to report this explicitly to the @Framework team?
What I’m seeing right now is major power drain issues with expansion cards, specifically on suspend. It seems like they enter a different power profile than when the computer is idle. So it could be something relatively simple to fix, since the difference really is between suspend and idle…
Anyways, once I get my actual results, I’ll open a new thread about this and cross-reference it here. I’m also considering just opening a formal support request to see if we can get this moving in the team as well.
Thanks to everyone doing detailed tests here. I just want to echo some findings with my 12th Gen and Debian Bookworm/Testing:
The USB-A adapters are doing weird things in deep. Removing them doesn’t affect s2idle but they boost current draw in deep to about triple that of s2idle.
For my build with a SN770 1TB, the nvme=noacpi parameter isn’t signifcant. s2idle and deep usage are pretty much unaffected by setting/unsetting.
Laptop at about 55% battery, put it into suspend, no power overnight to the apartment, next morning - laptop had shut down of out power.
One USB A stick inserted, one USB mouse.
I’ve noticed when running on battery that having the mouse or the USB stick inserted (I’ve not checked with both) adds something like 4w of battery drain. Having scanned briefly through this thread, I see comments about USB A devices commanding considerable power drain, and indeed, if one or both devices was still drawing power during suspend, that would most certainly account for the shut down overnight.
I have been having sleep issues with my frame work since I purchased it (batch 5 or 6) and finally decided to do some testing. I started with a fresh W11 load, installed latest drivers (also on 3.17 bios for my 11th gen i5) and enabled S3 sleep (s0 disabled). I put my W11 system to sleep with 60% battery (set via bios as max) at approx 8pm. The following day at 2pm, I woke the system, logged in and the battery was down to 9%. Obviously s3 sleep, for me, isn’t actually working. Unfortunately, if I have to full shutdown every time just to keep my battery from draining when not in use, then it is time for me to switch to some other system that actually works in this manner. Honestly I don’t really know if this is a Windows 11 issue, a framework laptop issue, or a combination of both. I have used S3 for years on my W7, W10 laptops and never had this much of a battery drain. I guess I could switch to W10 on my framework and test it as well.
My impression was that the new Windows approach is to suspend-then-hibernate, which should do S0 until your battery has dropped 5% and then hibernate to disk, after which your laptop is actually off.
On Linux it looks like the power usage under S2idle (ACPI S0 if I’m not mistaken) can, with a bit of tweaking, get you to a 2-day lifetime or so; but it depends a bit on your setup (NVME and expansion cards) what base level you can actually attain. “deep” (ACPI S3, I think) doesn’t actually seem to get you that much better.
Windows going the suspend-then-hibernate route is definitely going to affect how much optimization chip set developers are going to put into getting decent performance from S3, so it is quite conceivable that modern hardware performs significantly worse under S3 than older hardware does.
Framework’s 55Wh battery is definitely on the small side and it’s pretty clear by now that it’s not the best-tuned in its class for power efficiency, but the figures people have been able to get are not too far off from middle-of-the-pack performance either.
Yes, that’s a decrease of 28.4Wh over 21.5 hours, so that’s in the 1.3 W range. That’s in the upper regions of Test results for standby battery use of Expansion Cards (on linux). If you have non-USB-C expansion cards plugged into your system you can probably significantly improve performance by unplugging them, but 0.8 W is about the best people have reported so you shouldn’t expect to do much better than that.
Appreciate everyone here sharing their findings. Doing testing on our end (new testing) and will have results here in the not too distant future. Thanks everyone.
Thanks Nils, that is a bummer to hear, esp. needing to remove my usb-a cards to try and get more life out of sleep.
Matt, I am certainly looking forward to hearing if there is anything that can be done. (Other than doing a full shutdown to save ones battery when not plugged in.)
Have you given window’s default suspend-then-hibernate a try? On my surface tablet that works just fine (I’ve never changed it from the default): if I leave it unplugged for more than half a day, it will display the “windows” symbol when I open it up but within a few seconds it’s up and running.
I don’t use windows on the framework laptop, so your mileage may vary there.
