Once I have the laptop in hand, and some switches to play with, I’m thinking of a thicker (or possibly just shimmed, but likely not) hinge, and a 3D-printed TPU “bumper” bezel around the perimeter of the screen rather than shimming on the case.
I haven’t looked at the display cable either since I’m Batch 8, and I haven’t looked closely at the hinge either, and those are what I expect to be the biggest issues. I’ve heard that only factions of a mm are needed to fit the low-profile Cherry switches, so I hope the bezel and shims plan works.
For normal hinge/display mounts, the bezel will be able to have a cutout for the extra space the hinges take up, so it would potentially be that simple… shim between the hinge and display chassis, and a bezel with a bumper around the perimeter.
Next best would require a display cable extension, or a new display cable, and worst would be a new hinge design along with the new display cable… both seem completely doable along with a bezel bumper (and both seem relatively easy to install as well).
If you’re ok with the display not closing completely flat, and potentially not being able to make use of the hinge switch (e.g. manually entering sleep), then you may be able to just print a raised wedge bezel that’s thicker at the top than the bottom, allowing the display to only “partially close”, leaving room for the keyboard. It’d likely be thick on one end, but perhaps that’s tolerable. There’s also likely opportunity to minimize the thickness impact using some other tricks.
Hello there. Thanks for the mention. I am still very much looking into having a custom keyboard to replace the standard keyboard format, although slowed in pace with my experimentation.
I am not aware of any progress on the discrete switch since their mention by NRP.
Depending on how it is executed, it could open the door to more reliable designs for a custom layout, but it does seem like a low priority for FW, understandably.
One direction I have been exploring when it comes to Cherry ULP switches that would not necessarily require raising the hinges would be to have a custom PCB with a valley / depression for the ULP switch to be sited in, so as to offset the additional height that comes from the key and keycap.
On top of that, there is the matter of key caps for the ULP, and last time I check, the best thing I could find was the Corsair K100 with ULP switches but one just to mess with key caps and switches is too expensive for me as of now.
Personally, I am not very enthused with the raised hinged approach as I would like to retain the laptop’s thinness, so I have not looked too much into such direction, but I might change my mind later on.
Some new resources that I found while looking for ways to use the Cherry ULP in case some might be interested though:
Writing this in a rush, so I did not have time to peruse and ponder over everything that was said here so far, but looking forward read more of the discussions later.
There appears to be so little room available (without raising the hinges) that I believe you’d have to use a polyimide PCB. You might be able to have a stiffener applied to the whole board, with cutouts for each key. I’ve seen stiffeners done in fairly complex shapes, just not quite like this would be. But even with a polyimide PCB it feels like you’ll still need to go unconventional for the keycaps.
i’m interested in a custom keyboard myself, but in my case, i’m mostly interested in trying to see if i can get an 18mm key pitch keyboard… i have slightly smaller hands than average, and having a decently powered laptop i could potentially have a healthier-for-my-hands keyboard on is an exciting prospect. i’m waiting to see if anything develops once the fw16 start hitting the hands of DIY types… i’d even be willing to commission someone to help with designing something (for long-term health maintenance, it’d be worth the $$$. and i am bad at electronics).
I have less concern over this approach than I did have, thanks to above posts from @Adrian_Joachim and @Deuce. The additional height should be very minimal, particularly as your own research suggests that it may be possible to accommodate the ULP switch within the existing case. If so, it stands to reason that only a little more headroom is needed to make it a comfortable fit. I think that if an ULP compatible case was made it would be very difficult for the average person to tell it apart from the current design without comparing both side-by-side.
I understand that the “open” aspirations of the framework hardware do not extend to CAD drawings of the chassis, obvious when you think about it as they don’t want to do the job of clone manufacturers for them . There are however threads where the case drawings are reverse engineered, such as that here.
Another user is looking at a deeper, more rugged chassis possibly with headroom to accommodate “mechanical” keyboard module. However the stated goals of the project require certain compromises in aesthetics, mass and dimensions, whereas this thread agitates for the chassis many of us feel Framework should have as standard.
Oh I am all for an release of the chassis cad, I just don’t think it is very viable to manufacture a different one for a couple couple mm taller hinge. I don’t think clones of the chassis are much of an issue for anyone. It’s not like someone is cloning macbook or think-pad mainboards cause the schematics leaked.
It is not a “couple of mm taller hinge” just for the sake of it. It is a design tweak to unlock disproportionate number of benefits. Here are the main benefits I can think of:
We open the door to custom designs of keyboard module built from discrete switches. Rather than anybody with an unorthodox keyboard design having to be confident to amortise the tooling costs of a membrane design over units sold, a new case design would be amortised over every unorthodox keyboard that is sold. Framwork would better achieve their mission of being customisable. Of course the “mechanical” switches would be desirable beyond the unorthodox keyboard community, as the second point refers:
Better typing feel. This better meets Framework’s mission for class leading ergonomics. We also get the “mechanical” keyboard snobs onboard. I am willing to bet that there is also a big overlap between those who favour “mechanical” keyboards and those naturally drawn to Framework’s mission because:
Discrete switches mean not having to replace the keyboard module if one key fails. This makes the keyboard module repairable; it is possible to de-solder and replace individual switches. Framework would thus better achieve their mission of environmental sustainability.
I am interested to know which of these trinity of reasons appeal most to readers of this thread, but of course there is no need to choose because we get all three for the price of one! The only cost being a mm of two tweak to the chassis (or additional spacer).
I guess I’d rather think of myself as a keyboard connoisseur than a keyboard snob, and ardently favoring, rather than dead set on, mechanical keyboards and trackpoints. (don’t worry David E and dossman, no offense taken )
As I proffered in 2021, I would gladly trade a little laptop thickness and a little weight to achieve these, for me, holy grails.
OK. So, maybe I am a snob.
I would be interested to know much depth and weight (either in absolute or relative terms) you expect a “mechanical” keyboard to add, using super-low laptop specific switches? Also, just to get a handle on your preferences, how much additional depth or weight do you feel would be a deal breaker for yourself?
Your guess is as good as any of ours, but if available, would you like one yourself? Should we read the above that you see more utility in, or would prefer, a track point to “mechanical” keyboard?
I used to use much thicker laptops, from 2011, and even earlier, a monochrome DOS laptop, that didn’t even have a trackpad, it was nice having the keyboard closer to me, with no extra space for the pad.
I don’t know how much would change if an acceptable ultra low profile keyset is used, probably wouldn’t matter to me, because I prefer function over form.
For a trackpoint device, I’ve had them on several laptops and never really was able to control the cursor with them. More power to those more dexterous than I. I did appreciate the physical mouse buttons that were associated with the pointer nub, though.
So I would prefer a good positive feeling keyboard.
At home I use an MX Mechanical. Not a gamer, so my usage is mostly typing.
Still getting used to taps rather than clicks on the trackpad, also. Too much muscle memory and not enough brain cells allocated to remember the new options.
I should have mentioned in my last post this is my current situation. The 2016 vintage MacBook is accompanied most places I go by the Keyboardio Atreus. As you allude this setup works satisfactorily. The keyboard on the Macbook is so-called butterfly switch design which actually gained some measure of notoriety amongst its users to the unreliability, but on the plus side it is so thin and light the penalty of dead weight is minimal.
The problem is that as an Apple user already, I am customer of a firm that already has an acceptable range of thin laptops. As such I find myself hanging on for the opportunity of a laptop with Atreus as a built in keyboard to justify the effort of switching OS. I can afford to be super-picky, and if I can’t get exactly what I want brand new I feel it better for the planet just to keep muddling on with what already exists.
You might have guessed from my hardware choice I am not what would be termed a “power user” and quite happy to keep a laptop for a very long time which makes the Framework mission of repair rather than replacement quite tempting.
I have had a Thinkpad with a point stick a several years ago, I remember it being perfectly usable at the time but perhaps did not really take it seriously as being preferable to the trackpad which seemed at that time to have “won” the competition between these pointing techniques. I now know of course this victory may be just as much due to ease of packaging as to user preference. I do not know how much depth this device adds to the input deck but probably more than discrete key switches would.
Nobody’s going to ask for a worse feeling one! In fairness there is nothing wrong with membrane designs, if they were so bad businesses worldwide would not be inflicting them on millions of highly paid office workers in an environment where RSI and other ergonomic health and safety liabilities matter. In some respects I feel that the better feel is a side effect of more tangible hobby manufacture and repairability benefits.
One reason I put quote marks around “mechanical” in my posts in this topic is because for many, “mechanical” automatically means full height MX pattern switch and is IMO an ignorant marketing term. I think “discrete” is a better description but am forced to adopt terminology that exists.
i apologize for a very small derail, but i flinched at seeing you call your macbook vintage. in preparation for trying to be sure i can have a framework 16, i ended up needing to build a lift assist rig, and to load it properly to validate “can i use a heavier computer with this equipment”, i repaired a mid 2012 macbook pro.
what’s the boundary between ‘vintage’ and ‘archaic’? i’m sure my old apple 2s are deep in the latter category, but there’s a pretty large range available there.
i think this is a valid point; a lot of people get caught up in specific aesthetic or ergonomic assumptions that not all mechanical keyboards meet.
it’s something that’s frustrated me in particular, since all the rush to replicate the experiences of the kinds of keyboards that damaged my hands makes it hard for me to find assistance finding/designing a keyboard that won’t make things worse.
truth be told, high quality membrane keyboards hurt my hands less than any mechanical keyboard i’ve ever been able to place my hands on… but i haven’t been able to actually try low actuation force linear switches for real yet, and i don’t want to build a custom keyboard for myself if i can’t at least get it the right size.
Interesting discussion, I am happy that we have the opportunity to have it.
My first real job, in 1986, the computer was an IBM 286 AT of some sort, I much enjoyed its firm and heavy keyboard.
Later on, I had NorthGate keyboards.
I guess I am just a fan of such a feel.
I actually don’t have a problem with the keyboard on the 11th Gen, batch 1 Framework 13in that I purchased. I find it perfectly useful. There are some times when I do a stretch of numeric data entry, and for that, I prefer a numeric keypad on the keyboard. Yes, I have tried separate keypads, but then, I just put them away, somehow, just not satisfactory.
I’ve heard of those butterfly keyboards, and when my daughter wanted a MacBook in 2020, I tried to research whether the MacBook Air she ended up with had one, as best I could tell, it doesn’t. She is happy with her device, so I am also.
. There are however threads where the case drawings are reverse engineered, such as that 
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