Farewell Framework

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I was an early adaptor of Framework 11 gen in Australia back when it wasn’t even available for sale here. Loved that machine and boast and bragged about it every chance I got. Hardware wise, it was the laptop I felt was mine the most because I could tinker with it, customize it and so on.

2 years on and a combination of factors later, I sold my Framwork and purchased a MacBook Pro.

Here’s why:

The main reason is that a computer is not just hardware. Software is just as a big part of not bigger. Linux which I used was a maintenance hell with endless little broken things here and there. I didn’t mind it until now because I was younger and energetic. But I got sick of losing basic functionality after every third update. As owner or iPhone and Apple Watch, it also sucked that almost nothing could be nicely shred between these devices (that I guess we can attribute to Apple’s decisions).

With Macbook, I don’t have much room to tinker with it, but I don’t want to either! I’m just tired of tinkering just to keep something operational. I also can’t add/remove ports, upgrade RAM or other things. But in return, I get a device that is so amazing and magical to use day in day out, and one that just works, that I’m more than happy to give up the above.

Not only is the OS fine tuned to the bone to take advantage of every little thing in the hardware, but the entire ecosystem of 3rd party software written for Mac is light years ahead of any linux or windows app.

And the fact that Macbook, iPhone and Apple Watch work together like a dream is just the icing on the cake.

I love what Nirav and his team are doing and I cheer them on. But to paraphrase Apple’s philosophy, if you’re serious about software or hardware, you have to do the other yourself as well.

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I must be a pretty “basic” user, as I’ve been daily driving a FW 13 with Linux on it for years and haven’t had any meaningful issues. I know a lot of people have issues, so I’ll just count myself lucky.

I sort of went the other way. I recently sold my last Apple laptop, an M1 MacBook Air, that was my daily driver until I got the FW 13. I appreciate the repairability of the machine and the flexibility of Linux. And I never really got into the whole “ecosystem integration” on the Apple side. I don’t have an iPhone, and while I did have an iPad for a long time, it was a different device for different tasks and I never really had a need or a desire to sync it up with my laptop. Also, I don’t want to use iCloud, so stop asking, lol!

Anyway, nothing wrong with doing what’s best for you and your use case. I disagree with some of Apple’s practices, but there’s no denying that they make slick devices that work well for a lot of people. Cheers!

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I don’t think this really warranted a post about it. You prioritize a commodity, appliance-type device, and vendor lock-in over customization and choice. You like the controlled, walled, garden that is Apple.

On that note, I never understood why reviewers compare Framework to Apple in so many reviews. Their goals and purpose are the complete opposite in almost every way.

Hopefully your Framework found a happy home with a tinkerer who understands it. :slight_smile:

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Hope you enjoy your new device. I just got a Mac for troubleshooting Mac specific problems and it has the same problems I remember from the last time I used a Mac. It feels like a straitjacket on rails. Workaround after workaround to perform basic functions. Also found it to be a lot slower and less responsive. Geekbench is a lie.

Windows is slightly less painful. Sticking with Linux.

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I can see both sides of this issue, though the farewell to Framework really seems more like a farewell to Linux in this post. In my experiences with Linux, it hasn’t always been straight forward to use, especially if you’re dealing with a GUI and some update breaks a configuration that results in the screen reader not functioning, which would be a problem for me. I tend to use Linux headless as servers for that very reason.

Also, regarding EFI updates on Framework laptops, they seem easier to deal with under Windows than Linux from various posts I have read, especially when getting into less commonly used partitioning schemes.

I hope your Framework found a good home.

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It would seem to me that Linux and perhaps more specifically the distro you chose to use, is more the problem here than Framework itself.
But I do understand what you are saying, the integration between the hardware, OS and applications, is what makes the end user experience great, and this is where Apple excels.
It is however very hard for a startup company to match that kind of integration, Framework would have to roll out it’s own (Linux or BSD based?) OS and get application vendors onboard, and i don’t think it is reasonable to expect from a small startup company.
I guess this is also a bit of a chicken-egg problem, because as long as the scale is small, they are not going to be able to do much about it, and as long as this is not addressed, you won’t be able to attract the larger user base that really want the tight integration.

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Thank you for sharing your experience! When I saw the title, I was expecting something more negative, so I was surprised. It looks like the Framework Laptop wasn’t the best fit for your specific needs, and there’s nothing wrong with that! :slight_smile:

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Some people like the Mac interface. Many people do not find it “intuitive” or easy to use. Some people even prefer the Android interface to the iPhone interface, who would have ever guessed? Some people have no problem buying a new computer every five years or less. Some people like the idea of having a computer last for ten years or more. Some people do not mind repair costs that make it more cost effective to buy a new computer. Other people like the idea of inexpensive repairs that can be done by the end user. Some people like a wide range of choices and options, other people like other “wiser” people to make those choices for them. Some people do not mind paying three times as much for a computer that lasts half as long or even less. Some people like paying yearly subscriptions for expensive commercial software. Other people find that free opensource software is perfectly fine for their needs. Some people have much more disposable income than others. Other people spend less on some things to be able to spend more on other things. Some people like to reduce e-waste, other people don’t seem to care. Some people like to live in a walled garden, other people like a more open environment with many more options and choices. Some people like Windows and Macs, other people prefer to choose among Linux distros.

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This is also my experience with Apple. Remember when you had to install 3rd party software just to make your mac not go to sleep? Blows my mind that apple users just tolerated that…

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Now you’re getting it. Welcome to the club.

Tinkering should be optional, not mandatory. But things here are flipped the other way.

Laptop, regardless of brand and philosophy, is a tool first and foremost. It needs to just work when needed; dependability.

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I would argue that every laptop manufacturers should (operative word here) have the same fundamental set of goals (the whats). It’s the execution path(s) that’s different (the hows).

e.g. Happy returning customers, profitable, great UX, great product, great reputation.

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I would argue that every laptop manufacturers should (operative word here) have the same fundamental set of goals

That sounds asif you are arguing ‘one size fits all’, but that is not what the market looks like. There are different users, having different requirements, thus there are different target groups to aim at, and different goals for manufacturers to meet depending on which group they want to address.

(or in other words, what makes a customer ‘happy’, what makes for a ‘great UX’, differs a lot from customer to customer)

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“Their goals” - Their was referring to the companies, not the customers’ perspective.

So, think of this analogy: Fishermen goes out to the sea / ocean to catch seafood (secondary goal), with a fundamental goal to make a living / profit. Some choose to catch tuna (customer group 1), some wants lobster (customer group 2)…the market. What tools to use and how to catch them, which part of the ocean to go to, time of the day to start catching are the strategy / planning / direction.

If Framework isn’t profitable within a target period, it doesn’t matter how happy you are. (from the company’s goal perspective)

What’s typically heard is that the companies (Framework and Apple) have very different philosophies, different market strategies, different market audience. But the fundamental goals of most companies are the same (unless they’re a charity or non-profit).

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Hi oxplot,

I saw your experience, and from what you’ve experienced, I can’t blame you. But I just wanted to say that’s not the experience of everyone or every distro.

I have been using Linux as my daily driver for nearly 30 years now. I have 3 kids, and like you have less time for tinkering than I once did. I run Debian, and in fact so does my wife, my parents, and my kids. With Debian, I have an upgrade every 2 years. In between, it applies security updates while I sleep and there is just so very little I have to do to maintain it.

The quality of the software ecosystem depends on what you are doing. If you are doing video editing, then yes, there is more choice elsewhere. For most of my hobbies, not only is the Windows ecosystem inferior, it often doesn’t even exist (and the same can often be said for Mac). For instance:

I use HomeAssistant. It can control my lights, monitors my solar production, and lets me turn on an engine preheat on a schedule. It runs on Raspberry Pi.

I have a bunch of old Pis around the house doing whole-house music. So much cheaper and more flexible than Sonos, and it’s set-and-forget.

My daughter likes to listen to music to fall asleep and she is young and needs something simple. I rip some stuff to flac, pop it on a micro SD card with Debian, add a little shell loop, and put it on a Pi. It’s hooked up to old PC speakers I had around. Total cost to me was less than $50, and all she has to do it turn it on or off.

I am into amateur radio, and there are little micro-repeaters (“hotspots”) for digital modes like DMR, YSF, and D-Star. They all run Linux on Pis or something like them.

I could go on.

When work briefly required me to use a Mac a little while back, I was so frustrated by the lack of stability of that platform. Bugginess after updates, utter inability to use a tiling window manager, etc.

Just saying - there are different perspectives!

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[oxplot] 4d
I was an early adaptor of Framework 11 gen in Australia back when it wasn’t even available for sale here. Loved that machine and boast and bragged about it every chance I got. Hardware wise, it was the laptop I felt was mine the most because I could tinker with it, customize it and so on.
.*

Ouch! The IT guy at my very first company after graduating B-school told me:
“How can you trust an OS with a one-buttoned mouse??? Yah can’t!”

While you may see this as a joke, it is actually a Deep Truth disguised as a joke. Think about it. A one-buttoned mouse system display a deep distrust from the seller to the end user. It also displays a “Papa knows best”-attitude which I instinctively reject. I am a www.governmentisgood.com type of person, but that dismissive Apple attitude… my trust doesn’t stretch all the way to that type of greed driven entities. And the fact that Macbook, iPhone and Apple Watch work together like a dream just adds to my distrust of them. I think yours is a case of “they got their hooks into you via other devices” and you’re not being able to detox yourself from that. The same type of addiction, via social media junkies, is now wrecking our democracy. So… thanks but no thanks. Your given motivation for the switch makes me wonder: did you just get a Framework for the fashion statement?

Blockquote John Goerzen I use HomeAssistant. It can control my lights, monitors my solar production, and lets me turn on an engine preheat on a schedule. It runs on Raspberry Pi. I have a bunch of old Pis around the house doing whole-house music. So much cheaper and more flexible than Sonos, and it’s set-and-forget.

i just bought my first Raspberry Pi on a whim, overpaid probably, 70 euros for RP5. It would be nice if you could share more examples of what you did do with RP , or even manuals, or point to a site. Thanks

Some people like the Mac interface. Many people do not find it “intuitive” or easy to use. Some people even prefer the Android interface to the iPhone interface, who would have ever guessed?

after using a macbook 13 for about 40 seconds, i wanted to throw it against the wall. Literally. It made me agressive, so I walked away.

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I would just like to point out that your real issue is with Linux and not Framework. Framework doesn’t control any of the distros. They are not the ones responsible for ensuring compatibility and functionality on a specific distro. (Although they go to great lengths to try to help specific distros.) To me it just sounds like Framework was your scapegoat.

That said, there is nothing wrong with what you prefer. Some people will bad mouth it, but at the end of the day you should use the tool that works best for you.

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He’s not treating Framework as his scapegoat though. He even said:

He also stated / acknowleged:

Software can’t run on thin air…hardware is required. Hence he said “a combination of factors later…”.

His post is more about saying goodbye with the realization he has. Can’t fault a guy on figuring out what works for him.

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Then why, if software was the issue, is the Framework laptop not running Windows? My point being that the hardware was fully functional. It was the software that was the issue. The ability to customize it and make it their own, quickly faded when Apple became the solution. You effectively rent Apple products.

I haven’t. But I am calling a spade a spade.

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Agreed, and I wanted to add that his initial post really is a prime example of faulty logic: “I múst ditch Framework because of Linux is so bad”. WTH??? Why badmouth the hardware if the software is the true problem? No-one’s holding a … to his head and forcing him to use Linux, he could’ve used Windows, and with a little work, maybe even an Apple/Mac OS on the FW laptop.
Fallacy 2 is that he might be conflating the ‘tinkering’ of a Linux OS with the ‘tinkering’ which is possible with a FW laptop. But NO-ONE is forcing him to do either of those, so why blame the laptop, the hardware? This is truly unfair, and if I may, a bit childish. Seems he needed a justification for going into that “We’ll decide everthing for you” Brave New Apple Universe, and leaving the more think-for-yourself Framework-Linux environment.
Oh. Well.

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I don’t know…but I would think it’s why he selected Linux to begin with.

He did say:
But to paraphrase Apple’s philosophy, if you’re serious about software or hardware, you have to do the other yourself as well.

So, it’s not a single factor. It’s more to do with wanting the hardware and software acting as one. That leaves System76 really in the Linux land. But System76 doesn’t make phones or tablet (when looking at his use cases / workflows). So that non-Windows, non-Apple (if he didn’t go with Apple) world, you’re left with Linux on Chromebooks with Android for phone / tablet.

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