Framework Laptop vs Marketplace Orders and Freight Forwarding

[Azure]

@Carlos_Fernandez_San

So is say, Apple, and whether they like it or not if they sell in the EU there’s a two years warranty.

Not sure what your argument here is, since Framework also has a 2 year warranty for it’s laptops sold in the EU countries that it supports.

[Second_Coming]

@RPS

based on the laws of the supported country they are selling from

This requires more definition. Selling from as in where the company is HQ, or where the website is hosted, or where the DNS of the website’s domain name is registered…etc? What does the EU regulation say exactly?

i.e. There’s a distinction of selling to vs from. …and what’s considered as “from”.

Update:
Base on this page and this page, Framework is both the trader and manufacturer…based outside of the EU. As such, logistics / shipping cost for warranty repair doesn’t fall onto Framework base on this 2-year legal guarantee. The EU has no say / weight on how a trader outside of the EU is to operate, as the USA isn’t a Member State (obviously).

i.e. Just because a website has locale, currency support, free shipping for initial purchase for various regions…it doesn’t necessarily mean the company is based in that region.

@RPS

It would sate before pre-order that a customer is importing the product

Is this a legal requirement?

@RPS

hide this fact

Is it hidden, or an omission?

The warranty page seems very clear to me:

Framework | Warranty

3rd paragraph’s hyperlink…“What countries and regions do you ship to?”

Put it this way, is there anything in particular that lead you to assume Framework is based in the EU?

[Shawn_Lewis]

Question: If a buyer came to the US and purchased the product, then traveled home to the EU is that buyer entitled to any warranties by the US entity under EU law? (especially since the device was exported?

[amoun]

You will get the one year warranty and may well have to pay taxes on arrival in the UK unless being used. Do not buy and bring it in the box supplied.

[Varg]

@amoun

may well have to pay taxes on arrival in the UK unless being used.

Aye, if you cannot prove within reason that it’s just your personal device or regular business device, you gotta pay the ol’ taxman his due. Even unboxed you cant just go waltzing by with 3-4 laptops.

Best Regards,
Varg

[Azure]

@Shawn_Lewis

Question: If a buyer came to the US and purchased the product, then traveled home to the EU is that buyer entitled to any warranties by the US entity under EU law

From the warranty page:

This Warranty applies to Framework-branded products purchased from Framework or an authorized reseller, and applies only in countries to which Framework ships and supports.

So if you return to an EU country that Framework supports, you can still get all the benefits of the 1-year warranty given to US customers, but if you return to a country that is not supported, you void the warranty that you agreed to.

As far as I can find in my limited research, the EU has no requirements for US businesses as far as warranties go (at least not on products bought in the US, from US businesses). Which makes sense to me, as I would assume US laws would apply here, even to EU residents.

Disclaimer: I am no legal expert, and none of this should be taken as legal advice, I am simply a random American with an internet connection and some google-fu skills.

[cab]

@TheTwistgibber

We’ve lost product because the freight forwarded product gets locked up in Customs due to lack of proper documentation and the customer is unfortunately left holding the bag as we are not authorized to be in said country.

I am almost sure that there are ways to design UX in such a way that you will get a clear consent from user that you are waiving responsibility for any problem with customs in unsupported countries.
I have imported Framework into my country (Armenia in this case) successfully. I want you to pull the safeguards, and let me just do the same with replacement parts.

I think it’s only fair that if a part (cooling fan, in my case) is broken in one year warranty period, that I can get a replacement shipped for no charge. Even if that warranty technically doesn’t apply to my country. Even if it’s a freight forwarding address.

Your community are quite resilient and stubborn folk. There are communities around hostile laptop manufacturers like Lenovo or Dell, and many of those people turned to you not because they can’t repair their 7 year old laptop (still easier to source Thinkpad parts from China), but seeing that you are not impartial to them, and seeing this as a better way in a long term.

I hope that you will come through on this. After all, I just want to repair my laptop.

[Anachron]

@cab

I think it’s only fair that if a part (cooling fan, in my case) is broken in one year warranty period, that I can get a replacement shipped for no charge.

But how would that work? There is no insurance which will cover the cost to ship to an unsupported country. If for example the mainboard breaks during the transport of a replacement piece Framework would have to pay the full price out of their own pockets.

[cab]

@Anachron

There is no insurance which will cover the cost to ship to an unsupported country.

I don’t ask to ship directly — only to a forwarder in a supported country (US). Forwarder does a package inspection. And Framework is only liable for the damage incurred during shipping to forwarder — rest of insurance is paid by me to FF, and is an overhead I am willing to take.

[amoun]

@cab

I have imported Framework into my country (Armenia in this case) successfully. I want you to pull the safeguards, and let me just do the same with replacement parts.

Framework don’t have authority to support you and Freight forwarding isn’t to be used as a workaround. Where would it end. Make an exception for parts, why not the whole laptop:

As discussing Freight forwarding is banned on the forum you may be better directing your ideas to Framework via a support ticket.

[Anachron]

I think you should follow @amoun’s suggestion.
I don’t have any knowledge in such complicated trade-laws.

[amoun]

@cab

See

Warranty Claims and Freight Forwarding

Just to set the record straight here @Kamil_Hanus, you freight forwarded to an unsupported country and have refused to troubleshoot/work with us in Support. The billing address you provided does not match the actual payment method issuing bank or country as well. Let’s please make sure the facts are represented here. Our Support Lead provided you available options, and you have not been satisfied with them. We’re sorry that is the case, but that is where we stand.

and

Discussion of Freight Forwarding is Prohibited

Framework does not officially support any countries/regions other than those available for sales and shipment via Framework’s own sales pages, and if customers proceed with utilizing a freight forwarder, Framework will be unable to support the product should hardware replacement be required, nor will Framework be able to address any VAT or Customs issues that may arise. If customers decide to proceed, they are acknowledging that Framework is not responsible for anything that may happen as a resu…

[cab]

That doesn’t answer my questions, if only create a weird sensation that Framework doesn’t think much of their customers and avoids discussing hard issues.

Here’s a fact: Framework will never be officially present in all countries. And here’s a thought: It community may as well be worldwide, why not empower it to support itself?

I’ve verified with support that the part is broken, I can send an unboxing video from almost a year ago where no shipping damage is present, and I don’t ask for anything more than a regular shipment of a fan to a US address. What is so hard in that?

I doubt that Framework are a bunch of control freaks (thanks for HDMI rework directions, it really means a lot!), so it’s really weirding me out.

[MJ1]

Understandably, it can be very frustrating.

@cab

I doubt that Framework are a bunch of control freaks (thanks for HDMI rework directions, it really means a lot!), so it’s really weirding me out.

I think the confusion might be from missing or underestimating part of the issue for Framework. If they allow shipping to countries that they don’t have the legal authority to sell in, either officially or though their actions by allowing known freight forwarding, then they potentially open themselves up to legal issues. Framework is, at this time, a small company trying to get established with basically a disruptive product. In a market filled with massive established players. Lawsuits or regulatory fines can kill a small company. It sucks, but it’s better that they not take the risk at this point. Bigger companies might have the ability to take such a risk. Some have whole legal teams on staff at all times.

[cab]

@MJ1

If they allow shipping to countries that they don’t have the legal authority to sell to, either officially or though their actions by allowing known freight forwarding, then they open themselves up to legal issues. Framework is a small company at this time trying to get established with basically a disruptive product. In a market filled with massive established players. Lawsuits or regulatory fines can kill a small company. It sucks, but it’s better that they not take the risk at this point.

This is what I am interested in — they never raise this point in Discussion of Freight Forwarding is Prohibited, so I doubt this is the reason.
If it is, then it’s totally understandable — and should be made clear to the community so not to raise such questions as mine.

[Anachron]

@cab

If it is, then it’s totally understandable — and should be made clear to the community so not to raise such questions as mine.

To be fair, the community will always come up with new ideas and reasons how to make this happen, because people really want to get their Framework laptops.

I’ve been part of this community for around 6 months now and I’ve seen so many ways and tries trying to make Freight Forwarding happening, I am quite tired of reading the same type of discussions over and over again.

In fact, I don’t even know why we are still talking about it here, as the only one with actual knowledge whether or not this is doable is by Framework itself which has made it clear that at this point there will be no Freight Forwarding possible.

It sucks, but maybe you can send them an email with your suggestion? I am not sure if you legally waive your rights, at least here in the EU there are laws which protect the consumer from accidentally doing so, I am pretty sure such a thing is not possible.

[MJ1]

@cab

This is what I am interested in — they never raise this point in Discussion of Freight Forwarding is Prohibited, so I doubt this is the reason.

I think it’s a reasonable assumption, even if they didn’t say it in so many words. They have said

There are rules, regulations, and laws that have to be adhered to

Framework Laptop vs Marketplace Orders and Freight Forwarding

Fines and lawsuits are the consequences in general for ignoring (violating) laws and / or regulations. Also, I imagine it would make it more difficult to get approved to officially sell in a country where one has been flouting the laws.

[cab]

@MJ1

I think it’s a reasonable assumption, even if they didn’t say it in so many words. They have said

I won’t agree on that without an official confirmation — I presume they mean the hurdles of an official presence in a country. Many smaller companies send to freight forwarders without reprecautions, and a quick search didn’t find any lawsuits regarding liability of a company for sending goods to a forwarder (though there are quite a few regarding freight forwarders themselves).

[Fraoch]

As outlined in Discussion of Freight Forwarding is Prohibited we cannot allow this discussion to continue. This thread will be closed.