Framework supporting far-right racists?

[Ivirono]

@Henry_McGovern

Could someone provide a list of software that is going to elicit political attacks?

We can’t, because when the political landscape changes again, there will be witch hunts.

[Erani]

@Henry_McGovern

Could someone provide a list of software that is going to elicit political attacks?

Sometimes people say or do things that make you realise you never really knew them. You can’t predict that; you can’t say for sure “this person definitely doesn’t profess awful things”, because who knows if they’ll suddenly flip and post horrible stuff on xitter tomorrow?

We just have to do the best we can do in an imperfect world and adjust to events as they happen.

[not_winston_smith]

@AbrahamM

If I were to be as charitable as possible to DHH, he falls pray to many myths peddled by anti-trans folks. Whether that makes him anti-trans or not might, potentially? I’d say more damning are his views on immigration, and that usually coincides with a particular negative view of trans people also. Both of these views almost always come as a package deal for a reason, hence why people label him far-right or fascist.

@lukee

Yes, in that article I can see DHH is trying to normalize anti-trans viewpoints. Especially for people living in countries actively being taken over by fascists, the red flags are pretty apparent. But he’s at least somewhat clever about it, he rarely ever comes right out and explicitly says what he’s doing, and there are a lot of minor points in there I even agree with. So, I don’t expect you to notice the same red flags that I see, just as I don’t expect you to stop buying from Framework just because I choose to.

I just wish you would stop framing this as some big conspiracy to get Framework “cancelled”, when we’re all just tired people trying to do something, anything, to avert a horrifying future barreling towards us.

This is not the point here imho. You can’t call people names like that or imply that he is anti-trans (as @OliviaStarlust seemingly did above by replying with that linked post to my statement that he is not anti-trans), without having clear evidence.

And then using that wrong/misleading name calling to put pressure on Framework doesn’t help anyone either.

@Foxboron

DHH as a pervasive figure in the Silicon Valley

I think this clearly supports my thesis that he isn’t that which he’s being called.

The popularity of Omarchy gives clear reason for why Framework posts about Omarchy on X. The match between Omarchy and Framework was made by the consumers before Framework tweeted anything about Omarchy. Framework as a business followed along with the moment from its userbase.

@lienby

he’s also been uninvited from many others that are actually sensible and care about people. the point is framework is monetarily supporting DHH.

@lienby

for your information the conference is RailsConf, of which “Rails world” which, framework is monetarily supporting, was created directly in response too him being uninvited. primarily by DHH

Do I understand you correctly @lienby , your claim is that Framework supports DHH monetarily because Framework supports a conference that DHH participates in as a speaker. Specifically, a conference on Rails, that DHH created and in which he is still instrumental.

@lienby

so he could promote his fascists distro, and other shit there

Omarchy has 172 contributors, I would refrain from calling it such words, even if you disapprove of DHH. Even more so, given the popularity of his distribution.

[EngineerChris]

Let’s revisit the facts and the reasons people are upset. Starting with the facts:

1. Omarchy is the most talked about Linux development in recent months, quickly amassing millions of views accross videos and articles.

2. Omarchy is ranking very high in popularity, especially among first time Linux users, making the short list of first distro choices for many.

3. Omarchy is indeed just a modded Arch with loads of things included by default. To many with Linux experience it’s nothing interesting, but to many first time Linux users considering the switch, it is a very attractive proposition. This is good in my books as it brings more people into the FOSS world.

4. Framework have supplied hardware to Omarchy (no monetary contributions) for testing purposes in order to ensure that Omarchy can run smoothly on Framework hardware. A common sense approach applied to many distributions. It ultimately empowers Framework users to have more choice in what distributions they use without the fear of hardware constraints.

5. Framework shares on social media images of their hardware running Omarchy in order to promote the fact that it can and attract the customer base Omarchy already has towards Framework as a hardware choice.

6. People disagree with the political views of Omarchy’s creator.

7. Because of point 6 people demand Framework apologises for the common sense business decisions outlined in points 4 and 5.

Did I miss anything?

[Joe3]

One more item here I just saw brought up elsewhere…

Why would Rails World, of all choices, get so much more money than others? Specifically Rails World received:

• 2 times what went to Gnome
• 2.5 times what went the Linux Vendor Firmware Service
• 5 times what went to the Linux Foundation
• 12 times what went to KDE Akademy
• 12 times what went to DebConf
• 50 times what went to the Open Hardware Summit

Only Hack Club and Hackaday Supercon were given more than Rails World.

That is really strange to me. That is an odd and outsized distribution of funds.

[lienby]

your statement that he is not “anti-trans” demanding evidence is in response to the post showing said evidence; where he is being openly anti-trans and endorses a book talking about how to do DIY conversion therapy, and that fearmongers about trans people “mutilating their bodies”,

the fact you can point to anti-trans fearmongering about people having body autonomy, and then ask for evidence of said transphobia in the same breath, does not infact make it suddenly not “anti-trans” it just makes you also transphobic,

[Jacob2]

Well, that was a disappointing response. Seems like it would have been easy to say you don’t support racism, bigotry hatred, etc. and your sponsorships are not intended to condone those things, but you didn’t.

Your product is not competitive on price/performance alone. There is an ethos that props it up. If I feel you are not living up to that, regardless of your intentions, you lose that value.

I was looking forward to my next purchase, but now I have to reevaluate. It doesn’t matter how good the beer is. If you don’t like the people in the tent, it’s time to leave.

[Jacob2]

You missed the part where consumers have historically and somewhat predictably boycotted products that made business decisions that clashed with consumers politics and ethics. Look what happened to Budweiser for trying to market product to the LGBTQ community. Makes sense to increase your customer base, but their bigoted customers boycotted them. They weren’t willing share the beer tent with queers, even if it was a fiscally responsible thing for Budweiser to do.

If enough Framework customers are fundamentally opposed to the color of the escape key, and Framework chooses to ignore them, line will not go up. Simple as that. It’s how capitalism works. We vote with our wallet.

[lienby]

i mean you could simply just read what i actually wrote, rather than just picking out specifically certain parts of it,

there was a claim that their is no monetary support to DHH, however their own sponsors page shows this isn’t the case, providing to DHH even if its not directly via “omarchy” (which he used to shill omarchy)

it doesn’t matter if the contribution is to omarchy to to his little conference he set up specifically to get around being banned from the one from ruby themselves for being bigoted, which you keep insisting theirs no evidence for directly under all the evidence for,

[EngineerChris]

I fully agree with the concept of voting with our wallets and aligning ourselves with businesses that support our values - whatever these values may be.

On a polarising issue there will always be alienated customers. An apology will please some while alieanating others. The lack of apology will achieve the same.

I don’t see the point of demanding either outcome. Let’s all vote with our wallets and let the numbers speak. This way we all keep a clear conscious and Framework can draw whatever lessons and conclusion they will from the experience.

[Numerfolt]

I really like your summary, thanks.

I would want to add a sub-plot regarding hyprland:
Hyprland was quite controversial some time ago (partly because of a blogpost by the guy behind Omarchy) and people like me weren’t up to date that quite some things have changed at hyprland in the meantime.
They were thus really unhappy with the framework decision to support hyprland.

After I read up on recent hyprland-related things, I came to the conclusion that I don’t see hyprland as problematic as I did before. Instead, I find their new moderation quite okay.

[Ivirono]

@Jacob2

Makes sense to increase your customer base, but their bigoted customers boycotted them. They weren’t willing share the beer tent with queers, even if it was a fiscally responsible thing for Budweiser to do.

If we drop the labels for a second we can see the reverse situation here too.

But oh, wait, after checking the definition of bigot:

1. One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

We can see it applies equally to left-wings too. So, our bigots from the left didn’t want to share the tent this time.

[9999]

I thought there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Why would it matter what Framework does with its money? By that logic, aren’t we all fascists because we pay taxes to the U.S. government or gave our money to fascists at one point? Might as well not worry too much about it.

[not_winston_smith]

@FedX

However, I am disappointed this does not address Omarchy/DHH. Giving DHH a dev unit makes me genuinely wonder, what is the process for determine what projects and who get dev units? Why was Omarchy considered a technically relevant project requiring a dev unit? I realize I am likely asking about proprietary company information you are unable to release. I also realize there are likely dozens of questionable characters that got dev units we will never no about because that’s the nature of open source. My question is more, from a pure technical perspective, why was a few month old project that amounts to an Arch install script chosen as a project worthy of receiving a dev unit?

There is still the question of the social media posts of Omarchy, but I will let others hash that out.

Alone the exponential growth of Omarchy warrants that clearly. Omarchy has 172 contributors, 14200 GitHub stars and growing by hundreds daily, after being released end of June. There is a huge number of Social Media posts about it, especially combined with running it on Framework hardware (X, YouTube, Redit etc.). Omarchy got for instance exposure in 2 videos from the Primeagen that amount to over a million views in total over the past days.

@lienby

there was a claim that their is no monetary support to DHH, however their own sponsors page shows this isn’t the case, providing to DHH even if its not directly via “omarchy” (which he used to shill omarchy)

it doesn’t matter if the contribution is to omarchy to to his little conference he set up specifically to get around being banned from the one from ruby themselves for being bigoted, which you keep insisting theirs no evidence for directly under all the evidence for,

With the exposure that Omarchy enjoyed, DHH didn’t need to do any shilling in a conference. Also to keep it a bit on topic, the exposure Omarchy received from Framework was marginal in the grand scheme of things.

Given your take and tone in this post, I’m afraid I can’t agree to your take. So let’s agree to disagree. My point is: it’s ok to have personal opinions like you express them here, but pressing Framework based on them, troubling do I find.

[VaranTavers]

It is really telling that some people flag posts of opposing views to be removed rather than engaging with them. For people who are against fascist they do employ some similar tactics.

Other than that this newest announcement is still pretty correct and I support it wholeheartedly.

[Jacob2]

“I don’t see the point of demanding either outcome.”

The point is that loud demands draw attention and can shift the balance of power away from you and towards me. I will vote with my wallet and make demands, because I can do both, and it benefits me to do so.

[EngineerChris]

@Jacob2

The point is that loud demands draw attention and can shift the balance of power away from you and towards me. I will vote with my wallet and make demands, because I can do both, and it benefits me to do so.

In an earlier post I mentioned egocentric characteristics. Thank you for providing such a great and clear example!

What you are saying here is that your top priority isn’t the best interest of FOSS or Linux or the future of right to repair and upgrade or sustainability or any of those causes which are beneficial to the entire humankind regardless of which side on the political spectrum they fall under.

Top priority is an outcome that is desirable only to you and those who agree with you. Even if it comes to the detriment of Framework and the entire mission they support.

Thank you again for clearing this up and providing such a beautiful example highlighting my understanding of the issue.

[Piefke]

It’s rather hilarious to me that you have $215,000 to throw away at things that don’t directly benefit Framework as a company, yet you can’t even make your own products work correctly.

Maybe invest a little bit of that money in some developers to finally write a BIOS for 12th gen that actually works?

[Henry_McGovern]

Yeah, that isn’t workable. I guess software is off limits. Hopefully hardware can stay above the fray.

[Jacob_Nilsson]

I think the latests posts by @nrp is a step in the right direction, although I’m, like many others, also disappointed that it doesn’t touch the most controversial part, i.e. the promotion of Omarchy.

Also, regarding that the anyone’s opinion comes comes from an egocentric place is not a good way to discuss things. Clearly one side, including me, is worried that allowing a big tent will chase away some groups of people (in some cases they are a part of these groups). The other side is worried that some groups of people will be excluded unjustly (possibly they consider themselves part of these groups). I think almost everyone in this discussion joined it from a place of concern for others.

Lastly, there’s nothing new to be said here. Yes, some people think Omarchy is worth supporting. Some think it’s promoting ideas that are harmful. Some think we should just shut up and concentrate on technology. I personally think that it’s time to stop rehashing old points. Somebody brought up that they think it’s a shame this thread is the longest in this forum. While that may be true, if you only count the posts saying they will support, will not support, or the very nice posts showing me and others Hyprland is better community nowadays, there’s at most 350 posts in this thread. I urge everybody to stop rehashing the same points over and over and leave this thread for people to protest/support Frameworkcs official statements on this matter.

But you know, I’m not y’all’s mom, and don’t expect people to stop