Literally joined this community today and found out about the whole fiasco. This is just… so disappointing to see… Thinking about returning my brand new Framework 13, now. I don’t feel thrilled giving my money to a company and CEO who, at least, don’t seem to mind publically promoting and associating themselves with an outspoken white supremacist. If that wasn’t enough of a turn off, articles about Framework and racism are now appearing online and, like, who wants that association when using a laptop in public? This just seems so avoidable. Framework is pursuing a noble and worthy goal and selling cool hardware. Why tank your credibility to promote a racist loser dev of a fringe WM on twitter. What a crazy sword to die on.
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So, I’ve been watching this entire drama since day one, and coming back to catch up here and there hoping that there would be some new word from @nrp that would at least acknowledge the very basic issue at hand.
Instead, it’s a few people who are arguing in extremely bad faith with extremely clear and obvious attempts to draw out people into typical “The Card Says Moops” style “I own you” debate. I’m not going to go in for that. I’ve been an owner for a little over a year, and I’m going to speak very specifically about my own values and what will now, I have decided cost Framework a not small fleet deployment in a company where I am the decision-maker on our dev-spend for next year’s laptops.
Before I say what I really want to say though, to people pretending that we should keep politics out of this, no Linux and Framework are inherently political. Maybe not to your world, but to many FOSS and R2R represent a very distinct pushback against capitalism, privacy infringement, and erosion of personal security. To pretend that ethics is not a large part of why many viewed Framework through this lens is naive at best.
Further, using the zero sum of “Well what are you going to do-? Go to Dell/Lenovo/Apple? They suck too.” The answer? Yes. I am. I’m under no illusion what those companies are. I’m under no misapprehension that they are pretending to save the world and stand by a moral climate-backed ethos because make no mistake here: Framework is a luxury brand. They cost more, they have notably bad support, and are extremely rough around the edges at premium cost. To buy into that you have to buy into Framework.
So all that said. I appreciate the response on Hyperland. I genuinely do. I’m stunned however that the very simple addendum that could have been “Though Framework has provided material and some marketing support to DHH/Omarchy we do not condone or support their views or statements and remain committed to our ethics, diversity, and the betterment of our world.”. That’s all it would have taken. Instead we are on a thread that has gone for thousands of responses, a closed discord and the loss of two Linux community ambassadors.
I’m not privileged to their numbers. Maybe this doesn’t make a difference in their bottom line. In which case, go forth and continue, but I can say for myself that I will not be nor will the enterprise for which I work, pursue business with Framework at this point.
As far as I’m concerned, my Framework experiment ends here. It’s a damn shame. Take care FW Forum.
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“It was at this moment he knew, he f*cked up.”….Scrap that. That moment never arrived.
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Nah, there’s a change. I’m starting to remove the Gnome project from my computers thanks to this thread.
I knew they were leaning towards extremism and purposely avoided reading anything from them that is not technical, but one of their recent blog posts is just sickening and I cannot continue to keep my eyes closed. Framework should do their due diligence too.
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I don’t support DHH or the massive misstep of conflating accusations of fascism with hate speech in the same breath (good faith they don’t think they’re the same, but it’s still a PR misstep), however, I am curious about your decision to go Lenovo or Dell.
As you say, Framework represents a more climate conscious, ethical choice. Now they materially support DHH which is unethical, and you don’t want to give them money. Reasonable, understandable. But to turn around and give it to Lenovo instead? Who has no supply chain checks against e.g. child slavery, who has entered a strategy of planned obsolescence and started soldering parts to their boards? Whose taxes fund the CPC?
You’re already making ethical calculations when you chose framework: you wanted the climate conscious company even though the product was at least in the short term more expensive and possibly inferior. So DHH tipped the scales for you enough to buy from a company that has God knows what going on in their supply chain? I mean I haven’t looked but I can assume I can find orders of magnitude more harmful things in Dell’s wheelhouse than sending a laptop to DHH.
What I always wonder is why those trying to walk the walk often face way more criticism than heteronormative capitalist participants. Of course my iphone is built with slave labor, it’s Apple after all, but no I will not buy a Pinephone, they don’t have headphone jacks and failed to ban a transphobe sufficiently quickly on their community forum!
Never mind the fact that the most ethical decision for a fleet deployment would be to buy a bunch of pre owned machines to save them from a landfill in India where kids with scarred fingers will pick the chips off the board…
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I can only speak for my own reasons about this and can’t speak for @Clinko but I personally hold companies like Framework to a higher standard than Dell or Lenovo because I don’t want them to become like them.
It’s also fair to say that we as buyers or potential buyers hold more sway over a smaller company with some ethical standards than we would over bigger companies who are working in the interests of their shareholders and therefore voting with one’s wallet is essentially meaningless.
Now personally, I would probably buy an aftermarket corporate laptop rather than giving them money directly but with this current situation as it stands, I would consider that a decision more in line with my personal ethics that buying from framework.
The old cliche is that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism and we essentially have to pick our poison. However I do understand the seemingly contradictory notion of picking the more poisonous option in order to keep the better ethical option from becoming the same.
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Ive read more thoroughly into the matter, and I can see now why it’s controversial to say the least.
Having read articles about it, seeing people leave left and right, I wonder, what is the alternative? I can’t deny this is on my mind now. I didn’t just buy a framework for the hardware but to also buy into an (inclusive) community that had a lot of motivation for ongoing DIY projects surrounding the hardware. For this very reason, I cant wait to 3d print my own things for it.
I hear people just getting a second hand Dell or Lenovo but that just doesn’t cut it for me, framework wasn’t just hardware with a environment conscious background, it was something that helped me off a depression (more on that later), better for the world, beefy CPU(bought the 16 with the maxxed out Ryzen), and above all seemed fun in the process! I can’t wait to make my own spacers etc ..
I checked back in on framework after learning that Asahi Linux (Linux on apple sillicon) no longer works for the newer chips. It made me feel depressed. If apple decides one of those devices is too old, it just becomes land waste. That and tightening security for third party OS is not just a isolated event to me. Its a ongoing trend from big companies, your device their rules, and becomes a very small step to just block any apps outside the app store, further limiting the open source community at all.
Because of this, and looking for a way to vote with my wallet, I decided to look into framework again and found out they haven’t been sitting still either. And they had the hardware just the way I wanted it!
My depression was gone and preordered the 16 all specs maxxed out!
I.. I don’t feel that excitement anymore. Right after my preorder this controversy grew… Political opinions aside, I see you leaving left and right. Most activity on this forum now seems to be people who didn’t think this is controversial, which is fine, but my fear is this leaves a very small group rather than the vibrant, multicultural, inclusive community.
I just wonder, what do I do now? Do I cancel my preorder, and if so where do I find this kind of community and at the same time the hardware specs I need for work? Or should I just wait it out?
Love to all!
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Thank you for your balanced opinion.
But keep in mind that some people who think this is controversial are apologists of documented killings, so think wisely what that means about their real motivation.
I mostly made an observation, by looking at the DIY/laptop/hackerspace-related activity of the last 14 hours, and compared the usernames to stances on the matter in this thread.
I don’t know what “apologists of documented killings” means, as I dont really read much political stuff, if at all. Only recently I do becuase I feel kind of forced to now I’m still in the position of pre-ordering…
It’s a personal decision. I’ve decided to simply start treating Framework as I should have always treated them - like just another company that does not have my interests at heart. Barring a real organized boycott with specific aims/demands, I may continue to buy their hardware, but I will shop around to find cheaper parts elsewhere rather than buying from Framework to support Framework. I will no longer provide free advertising by excitedly recommending Framework machines to everyone I know and sending links to their blog posts around when they release a new product. When it comes time to buy a new machine, I will investigate the options and choose based purely upon what is the best machine for me, which may or may not mean buying another Framework. I may choose to cover the logo with a sticker as well as others have done, to avoid providing additional free advertising.
As for your situation, if it’s just a preorder, personally I would cancel it. Wait until reviews come in to decide whether to buy it rather than volunteering to be the guinea pig. If you’re a linux person, check out other linux vendors like System76 and Tuxedo. They may have the hardware you require already.
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From blogs.gnome.org :
Jordan Petridis
What you call violence, the rest of the world , including the UN, calls a liberation struggle against an occupying forceand its a fundamental right under the international human rights law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_resist
I would say you should open a book you fascist shithead, but you wouldn’t be one if you could read.
Here is what they don’t tell you: File:Hamas members attacking civilians in Kibbutz Mefalsim, Israel (October 2023).webm - Wikimedia Commons
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My old Linux laptop is a Tuxedo, its been one of the best I had so far. After 5 years I still use my Stellaris gen 2 for test training AI models.
Naturally, I was also looking for a new Tuxedo laptop in addition to researching Framework. I chose Framework because they had a better CPU than the newest Stellaris. Also, I feel (not proven yet) that battery life will be better than the Tuxedo.
From a purely technological perspective, I didn’t mind to pre-order, because with Tuxedo that happened to feel the same, it wasn’t a pre-order but it was a laptop custom-built with no reviews for my specific configuration.
Worst case scenario to me was that it was not good enough and that couldn’t be refunded, well I’d give it away to a friend or something.
As for covering the logo, to each their own ofcourse, but I hoped to join a community I’d be glad being in, not being afraid of showing. So far, its hard to tell which one it is, it really depends how Framework will get out of this.
It just feels cursed at this point
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That’s exactly right. I was unaware of the controversy a couple weeks ago and I met another person with a FW laptop in public. When I tried to strike up a conversation, he said “I just like to build things…” and didn’t share any enthusiasm for the brand. That’s what Nirav has created.
Based on the radio silence I can only assume they want to continue cashing in on the egoistic Silicon Valley founder community. Here’s a product idea then: stickers that say “I bought this before Framework became an alt-right brand.” Since the money seems to be so important and all.
I’m ashamed that my purchases created just another Silicon Valley manosphere brand.
No, it does not. Framework is a brand that represents itself that way. @Clinko preempted this, as well as your question about why FW faces higher scrutiny already:
Further, using the zero sum of “Well what are you going to do-? Go to Dell/Lenovo/Apple? They suck too.” The answer? Yes. I am. I’m under no illusion what those companies are. I’m under no misapprehension that they are pretending to save the world and stand by a moral climate-backed ethos because make no mistake here: Framework is a luxury brand. They cost more, they have notably bad support, and are extremely rough around the edges at premium cost. To buy into that you have to **buy into Framework**.
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I have only owned my Framework 13 for a week or so but I have put in a request for a return. That isn’t to say that I would try to convince you to do the same. My personal feeling is that, at the end of the day, Framework is a small company selling niche products. If someone asks me about my laptop, I’d rather say, “Oh it’s x common laptop brand” than have them google Framework and find articles about white supremacy. I also don’t want to be part of a “big tent” community that ignores the concerns of its poc and queer members, while sheltering the kinds of people who think promoting white supremacy is “apolitical” and we can and should turn a blind eye to it. Because the second category will be all that’s left when everyone else leaves. It’s very hard to consume ethically when you’re not fantastically wealthy and I understand the arguments for continuing to purchase from Framework. I won’t be trying to change anyone’s mind. However, you can get a new ThinkPad for the same price, where I live, with better specs and a 9/10 repairability rating on ifixit. If Framework is a company that will throw marginalised members of its own community under the bus for perceived financial gain, I’ll buy a laptop that’s better value and less… controversial. I’m not excited about that outcome but there we are.
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To be clear, I’d be delighted to see Framework turn this ship around. I’m not asking that Framework ban people from the forum for their political beliefs or vet customers before they sell to them or anything like that. If Framework could declare that they are firmly against white supremacy and perhaps laid out some steps they will take to be more careful with the people who they actively promote and to allow marginalised people in the community to have their voices better heard, that could go some way to beginning to repair trust. That seems like the sensible thing for them to do but, the longer that doesn’t happen, I fear myself and other people will feel less welcome in the community and / or won’t want to be associated with the brand.
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This is actually the best solution in my opinion, and one that I think would restore it to at least 70%, but I keep thinking it shouldn’t have come this far. I’m 100% sure that there are people who are either extreme left or right wing in companies such as Lenovo, Dell, Apple, etc. But are far less outspoken (perhaps out of fear of their own carreer) and keep their strong opinions to themselves.
It feels if everyone did that (including DHH) and focussed just on making cool shit, then nobody would be shunned for liking that cool shit.
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This is a very interesting comment and I’m very interested in your thoughts, as well as @rustyniall , @Clinko , and @Jeremiah_Jones . My understanding is that there’s a general sense that the whole point of Framework was to “vote with your wallet,” to make a stance within the context of capitalism that you aren’t ok with environmental harm by companies like Lenovo or Dell who promote e-waste and make no effort to even pretend to not do so, whereas Framework’s entire schtick was anti-e-waste, pro-environmentalism, pro right to repair, and so to participate in Framework was akin to joining a sort of community or even movement. The Framework logo on the back of the laptop was a statement alongside the benefits of repairability of the machine itself, and now that statement is tainted, and so…, here’s where I get confused, though Jeremiah you are correct that Clinko tried to preempt this confusion, I am simply not able to understand yet, why is the solution to go back to the companies who don’t even pretend to care and don’t sell repairable machines and are doing objectively more harm to the world?
And that brings me back to @emeraldshow ‘s comment. It reminds me of a time I lost my jacket on a United flight and filled a support ticket for it. Doing so got me entered into a random thing where I was invited by United to meet a part of their executive team over a lunch with some other customers to just I guess give them direct feedback. I was fascinated by the other customers that were selected: they were all people who were e.g. huge posters on airline point optimization forums, or airline bloggers or the like, and they had a lot of feedback about obtuse point system changes that I simply couldn’t understand. But I had a similar main confusion as I do now in this thread, which reached its apex when the points-forum guy said “It’s starting to really feel like United isn’t using the loyalty program to create a community of United flyers” or something along those lines. I had to ask him directly, “Do you believe having a high status on United means you have a special relationship with them? Do you believe they care about you?” Yes, and yes, were the answers given straight without irony, and I asked the executives the same, is that true? Their yes felt much more politically correct, the kind of yes you see a politician say through his lying teeth on camera.
So that’s my confusion: Many folks, including those named, seem optimistic that there are ways to fight back against environmental damage, or to protect right to repair, by buying a laptop from a specific brand. It seems like some people are feeling betrayed because their ethical champion in capitalism has turned out to be wearing false colors. So I have the same question: Did people really believe that Framework is going to have a meaningful impact on environmentalism, enshittification, late stage capitalism, or right to repair? Did people really believe that any corporate entity under capitalism is capable of anything other than maximizing profit?
I am skeptical. United airline points are a mechanism to ensure you continue to choose United airlines even though they suck ass, and they’re designed by PhD mathematicians to ensure the house always wins no matter how many perks and upgrades you think you’re getting. I’ve met Nirav, and the Framework folks used to come to my restaurant (around the corner from their office), I believe he believes in the mission and I believe his team does too (even moreso), however I am skeptical to my toes about the ability of any capitalist entity to have any meaningful impact on the topics they’re tackling, and so I’m confused at the grand sense of betrayal by folks here, or even feelings of depression!
I would argue for clearer eyes: By buying a Framework, the most any of us have ever done is at least ensured a little less e-waste from ourselves, and for us Linux nerds, some great work in Linux driver world. But to think we were doing something more meaningful than that, I just don’t know, it seems like a trap. Like we were thinking the United Platinum Status meant United cared about us.
Thought experiment: Nirav apologizes for the DHH thing and bans him from future purchases, and hosts an antifascist rally in SF. He does whatever it is that purifies him in the eyes of the naysayers in the thread here. What’s our world look like then? Let’s even say, Framework gets 20% market share. Has John Deere been defeated in court and farmers are allowed to repair their own purchased equipment now? Or has a stacked supreme court and the massive capital wielded by John Deere won? Has Apple and Samsung been forced to stop engaging in planned obsolescence? Has Google’s monopoly been broken up, does BP still dump oil into the Gulf whenever it wants, is jet fuel for private jets taxed like fuel for cars is, does America have any kind of public transit, are there still coal plants running? Are there still children in India picking chips off old phones? Are PRC fabrication employees still hurling themselves off roofs? Framework is eyeing an IPO that could take it into the stratosphere, is it our champion still? Does the team resist the siren call of all becoming millionaires? Does Nirav, with investor Linus Sebastian breathing down his neck, resist the siren call of becoming a billionaire?
Do we really keep trusting capitalist entities to be our champions in these fights? Have we ever been anything but disappointed?
@emeraldshow , my honest advice is the most important thing you should be doing is having a deep think about how consumerism might be affecting you, and where your emotions are coming from in regards to a laptop purchase. I feel sad hearing that your depression is affected by the thought of a purchase, I’ve heard of shopping therapy before but I’ve always felt it’s some really messed up symptom of capitalism: somehow the corporations have convinced us that buying things will make us happy.
If what you’re looking for is a vibrant, multicultural, inclusive community, you can find it, easily, and you won’t need to purchase anything to do so. Find your nearest Food Not Bombs chapter, or some related organization; hop on meetup.com, look for environmentalists, activists. See if there’s a g0v group near you, or a civic hack group (code for america is the big one in the usa). If you’re looking for a powerful laptop, get a good lenovo t14 on ebay, install linux and join the community of linux nerds, but you can join the community of linux nerds right now without buying anything: just watch some programming streamers on twitch or youtube, follow them to their discords. Run linux in a VM if you must. Get a raspberry pi and plug into a cheap monitor.
For me, I am genuinely curious about my above questions, I’m not trying to attack anyone, I just want to know: if you think there’s a solution, within capitalism, to the problems capitalism creates: why? What does your ideal future look like and how do we get there?
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Thank you for your wonderful piece that isn’t shrouded in politics, bias, and namecalling.
I don’t think that I’m changing the world by simply buying another laptop, 100%. I do however, have to have a laptop that is good, the latest specs, all upgrades maxxed out, for work (data science)… My current laptop is a few years old and I can’t do the things I want to do today, so it is time for an upgrade. It won’t go to waste, a friend of mine wants my macbook air and he gets it.
So you are right in the regard that you dont need to simply buy another laptop to be part of that movement, but the fact remains I need one, and I need the best of them. This is where my next option isn’t “should I buy a laptop” but “which one do I buy?”
As for your airline comment, it’s funny, I’m still in that pink cloud and we have a lot in common in that regard! I have the same birthday as KLM (7th of october) and I fly with them whenever I can, including once on my birthday (which was the best flight ever lol).
But yeah, I don’t think I’m buying my way into a revolution. As a famous quote goes “be the change you want to see in the world”, so its not what you buy but rather what you do. And I hope that people wish to leave a better planet than that they found themselves on. What I mainly wanted to achieve with Framework, was that I bought something that supported Linux well, that has a diverse community and DIY projects surrounding it. And yeah, kind of also the vibe! Have you ever pre-ordered a laptop, and then thought “What should I try make for it first?”. Well, I never had until 2 weeks ago when I pre-ordered my 16” laptop!
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I didn’t buy a Framework laptop under the delusion that doing so would end capitalism and save the world, no. I did buy it hoping for a laptop that I could easily repair and therefore use for the next 10-15 years. So yes, I did feel that by buying a Framework laptop, I would be supporting a company that promotes right to repair and Linux and, therefore, is a force against e-waste and proprietary walled-gardens. Frankly, I think people believing that is the only reason Framework exists. I don’t feel particularly betrayed on that front, either. My point of contention is that Framework hardware is not so spectacularly superior that it offsets them doubling-down on associating themselves with a very open white supremacist. I actually share your previously stated concerns about a culture of political purity fracturing and hindering the growth of communities. A good company with room for improvement is better than a company that is not trying to do good at all, I agree. However, in this situation, what do you think is fracturing the community? What has lead to people selling and returning Framework hardware, community ambassadors stepping down and flame wars in the forum? Is it Framework staying out of politics and working hard to produce a good product to sell or is it Framework making the actually quite political choice to double-down on associating themselves with a very politically charged public figure, who has previously brought similar havock to other open-source spaces, and then refusing to comment further as people in the community continue to raise their concerns. I don’t want or expect Framework to become an activist company taking a stand against the world. I want them to be a manufacturer of cool laptops with a welcoming community for everyone who can be basically respectful and tolerant of others. You can’t do that while promoting controversial, politically charged and racist public figures and pretending you don’t hear or understand the understandable concerns of your customers, imo.
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Well, if a few returned units mattered I think we would have seen a statement sooner. The company must make a profit after all - or our dream of repairable laptops would die. 