FW16 - missing the mark?

And my point is they are targeting, meeting, and exceeding the requirements for a Mobile Workstation in the Enterprise Space. This just happens to align with what enhusiasts i.e. early adopters have been looking for, well for at least a decade.

The only issue here is that at this point they are actually digging into their current market segment, splitting it, and now have two manufacturing lines for essentially the same market share. They have expanded their market and are likely to do so in a non-incremental fashion. This is a different market segment completely, and justifies the additional manufacturing line.

You’re making a lot of assumptions here for someone who does not work at Framework. What you see from the outside is not a full picture of what is happening internally, and the only ones who know what is actually going on are the people in the company.

You talk about how support was swamped by the FL13 AMD release, but they were swamped by both a large influx of FW13 AMD orders, AND an overwhelming amount of FL16 orders at the same time. You mention issues with BIOS and long term support, but they have just used new capital from all the laptops they are selling to hire more staff to address those things, and haven’t even stopped supporting any of their products. Unless you have an in-depth knowledge of these things, I would give Framework the benefit of the doubt. I would be way more concerned if we saw the people in the trenches of these issues hopping ship, but both TheTwistgibber and Kieran, who are the ones dealing with these issues most intimately, are still hanging in there, which tells me that things will get better.

It is hard for a company with such a small team to jump into a competitive market and succeed, and I have seen what it’s like for an RND and support team dealing with way less complex issues and way less reliance on upstream vendors.

Maybe I’ll be screwed over by my optimistic views on this, and I am the first (even on this forum) to tell people that if their needs are not met by Framework, then their best option is to go elsewhere, but I’m sticking around because I trust that internally the team knows what they are doing and will eventually become a worthy competitor in the market.

The Framework Laptop 13 being a good all-rounder laptop is supporting the risks of the 16, and if the 16 doesn’t work out, I trust that in the future they will revise and try again, but I also see a lot of people on these forums that still plan to buy the 16 as-is.

Anyway, take all my opinions with a grain of salt as someone who bought a 2nd batch 11th gen laptop and a 1st batch AMD mainboard, as well as someone who has been active on the forums since before Framework ever released a product, so much so that I get a special “regular” badge next to my name. I know I’m heavily biased towards the company.

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Indeed, I should have been clear that I have no special insight into the strategy of Framework beyond all of the material, media and interviews from @nrp. Where I am expressing a view, I try to highlight that.

That said, I don’t think the fact that the FW team is spread thin is an assumption. There are numerous posts on this forum where they make the point themselves. Also, I do care whether Framework survives on the long term and, for that, they must become financially sustainable.

I have many years worth of learnings from building strategy, launching and scaling tech products. It’s very normal to get pressure from the market, investors, internally to jump fast into a new space with a new product, but in my experience, when and how this is done makes the difference between failure and success.

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Well ON target for those working in the 3D realm actually. 13" is fine for most work, but you really need the screen real-estate and GPU for all industry 3D software. Hence, I can see the relevant good reviews, and am looking forward to my FW16.

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Even if the 16" is a flop, FW are indeed doing very nicely with the 13" models. Even if that product does not succeed in absolute terms, it remains a flagship that showcases the capabilities of the brand, and in doing so, sells even more 13" units. Jokes about the “Homer” car may sting, but Ford survived the disastrous Edsel which probably inspired that sketch.

FWIW I am no longer considering buying the 13" and certainly not the 16" - lack of customisability adequately covered elsewhere - but a survey of machines in use in my local coffee shops and public library suggests that for vast numbers of people the 13" remains ideal.

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To me, the real problem might be that the machine is too overambitious in one fell swoop.

My guess is that if they had been too conservative he might have said that Framework wasn’t doing enough to set themselves apart in an already saturated market.

When it comes to if Framework is hitting or missing the mark you could argue that the Framework 16 is definitely a shotgun approach. Want a GPU? Want an empty shell that has room for mods? Want a numpad or not? How about some shiny LEDs or a macro pad that no one else offers? Want to move the trackpad to the right so you don’t hit it while playing games so you can just ignore even the best of palm rejection? Want more expansion slots to do what you want?

A shotgun approach means they are not going to hit everyone’s favored target right in the center but the flip side of that is that they will hit most targets. For me those targets are the large screen and the expansion cards(The only reason I do not have an XPS is because having just four type C ports is stupid). I love the idea of the Framework 13 but never got one because a 13 inch screen is just too tiny. I am not going with the 7700S because I want something with more than 8GB of VRAM. I can get that when they launch the next gpu(hopefully), but until then the 780M is fine and fits perfectly well into my various 100 watt stations at home and at work. I have an eGPU at home for the time being if I need it.

I think that if Framework were to expand their expansion card lineup just a bit and market heavily on them, maybe more than the repairability, it would be the thing to set them apart in the market. I love the sustainability and the repairability, but the expansion cards are the defining standout feature to me.

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Yes, the reviewer would have had to think up something bad either way.

I actually avoided buying a 13 because I felt it would not do enough for me to justify it’s price. I needed a GPU and larger screen for many things I use a laptop for. Then comes along the 16, on the other end of the laptop size/feature bar and it will do everything I need.

Now I’m thinking of also getting a 13 a little down the line to cover the few times I may want to have a smaller laptop with me.

Point is, they covered the light, small form with the 13. Then went all the way to the other end with the larger, more powerful, gaming/productivity laptop. I think it was the best choice. Depending on how popular Framework laptops become, they can always fill in the mid-size gaps with more products (or hopefully make a phone).

Just a reminder that FW16s are on Batch 17, whereas FW13 11th gen only had 11 batches, and FW16s likely have larger batches.

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One of the FW16 update emails stated that the batches are larger, IIRC the words they used were ‘significantly larger’, but I’d have to go back and look at the emails.

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And what would be the purpose of making a bigger FW13? Yes, the FW16 it is bigger and more expensive (like hand made shoes, that you can repair and wear all your life). But not that big and heavy without the GPU. And with the GPU it can appeal to a broader audience. Not only gamers, if a professional GPU is available over time. Imagine, that in time there will be a combo with the Intel Core Ultra CPU´s and ARC GPU´s. ARM CPU/GPU like the Apple M series. The removable expansion shell with a battery or something else… If Framework survives these hard first years, and becomes profitable…if it isn´t already. If not, we will have a nice “next great experiment” in a showcase to show our kids and grandkids. The article is written by a person, that prefers ultrabooks. Thin and light. But can a modular notebook ever by thin and light, as a soldered and glued ultrabook? Maybe, but I don´t know how, if it has to be rigid. It struggles to be rigid already in this form factor. Yes it is a big leap for Framework. But without risk, there is no way to take a bite of the laptop market. Only time will show if the decision was good or bad. Let´s hope for the best.

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I would take one say 3-4mm thicker so a stronger case could be had with better cooling.

Thin and crispy is always a bad idea in my opinion.

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A bad idea, that people prefer. Looks more “premium”. I do not envy the engineers of any manufacturer. Framework: “This is our new super modular gaming laptop.” Some people: “But it’s not thin and light like a glued together ultrabook.” Well… Go buy a glued together MacBook. I personally, am astonished how they got it this thin, light and reasonably sturdy.

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Yeah its a corner that so many have painted themselves into. Thin is BAD!

I think Apple moved away from Johnny Ives becuase his philosophy of reduce reduce was reaching the point of stupidity.

“Johnny by 2026 how on earth are users going to be able to charge or type on the damn thing?”

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Like thin bezels on tablets and tablet PCs. Everybody wants thin bezels. But holding a tablet with reasonably wide bezels is much more comfortable, and your hands, or keyboard don’t interfere with the screen. Form over function. The FW16 has wide bezels…yes but they have a function. Like laptops with high end cpu’s and gpu’s, that perform worse than a midrange thicker gaming laptop. But it looks better. And people buy it. It is not about the performance, but the prestige of owning such a device. Even when it throttle’s all the time and the 4070 tops out at 75Watts. Looking at gaming laptops today, I am literally confused, and must dig into the specs, only to find out that this expensive thing underperforms for it’s specs. But a buyer who does not understand, only looks at the cpu, gpu and the design. And he or she, is happy.

I remember the advert for an Apple laptop about a decade or more ago, the laptop was quite large and came in (at least) two screen sizes, one 16" (or thereabouts) and the other about a 10", so the screen had acres of bezel around it. The advert featured a tall guy finding his seat on a 'plane, only to find he is going to be sitting beside a dwarf who also has an Apple laptop which has a large screen. when the tall guy opens his Apple laptop it is the small screen version …

At least FW haven’t made a machine which is 16" screen size (so they could fit the number pad etc) but using the screen from the FL13.