Hi Sean,
do you get any BSODs or any message / logs when the shutdown happens?
No BSODs. It has even happened while I was going through the first-run wizard of Windows 10 after I downgraded to debug this issue.
The only events in Event Viewer are messages stating that an unexpected shut down/power loss occurred.
I will be returning the Framework Laptop. As much as I love the concept of being able to repair and upgrade any component of a laptop, I can’t spend this much money on something unreliable. Poking around more in these community forums shows there are lots of quality control issues that still need to be ironed out. The display is also extremely reflective, even in mild indoor lighting — and nearly unusable in sunlight. My plan was to upgrade the display on my Framework Laptop as soon as a better panel was for sale (OLED and glass would be awesome FWIW).
I was mainly interested in the Framework Laptop for its size and port selection. After more research, I found an alternative from an established brand. The Razor Book 13 has the size and ports I need, with a fantastic display. Upgradability and repairability are laudable goals, and I genuinely hope Framework thrives. In a few years, I might be back to try Framework again, as long as reliability and display quality improve.
I regret sticking with my unit, and should have returned mine when I could. Now, I come on here hoping to see BIOS updates, wishing they’ll address some of the mentioned issues in the forum. But it’s been 4 months since the last BIOS update was released. The fix cycles are just not cutting it (if any fix is coming at all). My unit is just placed on the shelf at the moment. I’ve gone over to ThinkPads…higher reliability at the very least.
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Right now, they are hiring firmware engineers, so it seems logical that it can take some time. They have projects (which?) being worked on, and there may be higher priorities, (such as making sure that the BIOS works before releasing it). They do have a beta bios, but, as stated, it’s in beta, and may brick your FW.
Sorry it didn’t work out for you. Re:“lots of quality control issues” I would say that you are experiencing a massive selection bias by trying to glean overall quality control by reading the forums. People with no issues are far less likely to post about it on the forums than people with.
The irony of buying Razer for something reliable…I genuinely hope your (non-replaceable) battery doesn’t turn into exploding pillows and you never have to interact with Razer support. For reliability and repairability I would much more recommend the business-tier offerings from Lenovo, HP, and (to a lesser extent) Dell.
If you do stick with the Razer, make sure you open the back cover and inspect the battery for any signs of swelling monthly. The trackpad deforming is also a less-obvious indicator of the battery swelling.
Hope you end up with what you need!
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Yeah, aware…I replied there.
Assuming there’s more fixes than just the CVEs (as there’s a post stating that a power drain issue has been identified and will be fixed with 3.08). So Framework decided that functional fixes can be held back by security fixes… From a user’s (mine) perspective, I believe something needs to be released sooner to the general population, fix as they come.
e.g. It’s not a great user experience if they (on the extreme end of the argument) decide to release all the fixes at the end of a product’s lifecycle. The benefit of fixes needs to occur on a more frequent basis to maximize the benefits’ lifetime related to the product’s useful life.
At the moment, the BIOS release schedule (whenever that will be) is more aligned with Framework’s convenience (resource constraints, and internally test CVEs and other fixes in one flow)…than it is customer experience focused.
(Came from this thread: Framework Laptop 12th Gen Intel/Ryzen??? - Laptops and Pre-Built Systems - Linus Tech Tips)
If you’re thinking of getting a Framework laptop now…don’t, wait for next gen if that’s going to be available in the pipe line. If you need a reliable laptop, don’t, also wait for the next gen if that’s going to be available (and weigh that next gen Framework against other laptop of the same generation). If you just want a laptop to tinker with…by all means, get what takes your fancy. And if you need a reliable laptop now, get something else.
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This. All of this. If they have fixes, they should roll them out immediately. Customers like me can’t afford to wait for possible fixes while the return window runs out.
And I say that as a senior information security engineer. My use case for VMware Workstation is reverse engineering malware and practicing pen testing.
This is odd. I use VMware Workstation on Windows 10 exclusively and I have never had any slowdowns. I’m a Batch 1 laptop though.
If you can’t pin down the issue, I would absolutely suggest that you contact Framework support. I understand your situation and I’m sure Framework does as well. If there is a hardware problem, they should be able to get to the bottom of it.
Are you a firmware engineer? Are you familiar with the ins and outs of such an undertaking?
There are A LOT of reasons for Framework to be behaving EXACTLY the way they are. The complexity of BIOSes are no trifling matter, and a lot of stuff rides on other things. This is not something you rush.
And if you think Framework is not extremely eager to roll out fixes to identified issues, you would be wrong. They would be insane to not want that.
What I have witnessed in my own use and experience with Framework leaves me confident that they are fully committed to their product line, and their customers.
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I don’t have to be a firmware engineer. I’m on the customer’s end. Just like I don’t need to be a chef in order to say what I don’t like about the food.
Sorry I’m not trying to insinuate anything. Your accusations made it seem like you might be a subject matter expert on the issue.
I’m a software engineer, and that is the position I give my thoughts from.
I understand that if you are in need of solutions and on a time crunch that all the great explanations in the world wont come to your avail. However, hopefully understanding the situation better can be of benefit in another situation where time is not the crucial factor.
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Hello there,
I am using VMWare workstation Pro 16.2.3 and I ran with this thread. I quickly downloaded a Win10 pro X64 just for testing if this is happening to me and it seems is not the case. I download the iso, install the windows, booted and open a webpage in like 15 minutes total.
I can share all my specs and the driver version I am running for troubleshooting purposes.
As a baseline I will start with my basic specs:
- Framework Batch 8 (EU) i5 DIY.
- Microsoft Windows 11 Professional (x64) Build 22000.613
- 32GB Crucial DDR4-3200
- WD BLACK SN850
I tested the Win10 X64 build 19044.1288 with 60GB and 4GB RAM and 2vCPU.
As an additional note:
In my initial configuration, I crashed with the problem of Nested Virtualization so I disable a bunch of things in my Win11 setup to make it work. See this thread
Edit:
I almost forgot. I originally bought an ADATA XPG GAMMIX S70 Blade 1 TB, I had problems with performance, this was not listed here so I didn’t hesitate and return it and replace it with the WDSN850
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Definitely not a SME on Firmware here. Also used to be an SE
Put it this way:
If this is what we’re getting when Framework considers this as a customer focused experience…there’s problem / room for improvement. And if it’s not customer focused, then there’s also room for improvement.
From an SE’s perspective:
Yes, there are a lot of moving parts…and features / fixes for 3.07 would have been frozen awhile back so that 3.07 could be tested… That means fixes for 3.08 would have been lined up in before 3.07 release. So from then to now, there’s 4 months plus to get things rolling…and we haven’t seen 3.08 yet. That, and together with still hiring for firmware engineers…points to resource constraints. Things are getting backlogged. CVE issues were made public back in Feb…so if it were customer focused, the time between 3.07 fixes freeze and Feb…those items could have been placed into a 3.08 freeze and enter the 3.08 test phase. CVEs could have been targeted for 3.09 or 3.10 by now. Allowing CVE fixes to holdback all feature / functional fixes to a single BIOS release…that’s a lot of eggs in a single basket. Not to mention that there’s likely additional fixes to come in the queue / pipeline. If the CVEs were communicated to Framework before Feb’s publication, then yes, it may have been landed into 3.08…but project management would have realised the ‘blocker’ / delivery risk if Insyde couldn’t provide fixes in time for fix integration (there could have been a cut off date for Insyde’s CVE fixes)…and should have planned for alternative route; deliver 3.08 without CVEs.
4 months+ still waiting for a 0.01 release…that’s where we’re at.
Just to clarify: “Rushing” is not what I’m suggesting.
I’ve tried it with hyper-V off and on. It started with Hyper-V off.
What was the SSD in it?
So, I figured out the VMWare issue. Windows 11 enables Device Guard by default on modern Intel CPUs. Device Guard runs Windows in a Hyper-V hypervisor to mitigate side channel attacks. According to VMWare’s documentation, recent versions of VMWare Workstation are supposed to work fine with Device Guard if you check “Disable Side Channel Mitigations for Hyper-V enabled hosts” in the advanced settings of each VM, but in practice that does nothing to help with the performance of the VMs. The only way to get VMWare Workstation running properly is to Device Guard via Local Group Policy (or registry key on Windows 10/11 Home), as described in a VMWare KB article from back when VMWare Workstation did not support Hyper-V at all.
I figured this out after I ran into same problem with the Razer Book I just purchased from Micro Center yesterday. At Least the Razer didn’t shut off on me. But, the Razer has its own deal-breaker issue.
The display of the Razer Book is absolutely gorgeous, but it has an extremely grating whine whenever the fans even start to spin up. Apparently this is a problem with all Razer laptops, judging from this 4 year old Reddit post describing the exact same issue.
So, in a twist, I have decided to return the Razer and give the Framework more time. The shutdowns didn’t happen until I tried using VMWare, so I’m hoping having Device Guard off will fix that as well.
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Glad you figured this out! How did you make the connection to Device Guard being the culprit once you saw the same behavior on the Razer?
The VMWare warning message that comes up in this situation mentions Hyper-V and Device Guard. I knew I didn’t turn either of those things on, so I searched around for how to check for and disable each feature.
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@Sean_Whalen I am glad that you found the cuplrit.
I’ve followed the exact same KB you were referring to when I encounter the Nested Virtualization Issue. It was a little late in my time zone to look for that specific page. I’m happy you find your way to it.
As a final note, you might find a better laptop for the price but is difficult to find this kind of community to give you a hand when something bad happens.
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