Laptop won't power on unless i plug in AC power

Community Support
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If powering up the laptop with no ac then I understood the ML 1220 gets no charge including the main battery.

In which case I see no difference in if the laptop is OFF for days or running on batterey for days.

The query I thought was how long can the ML 1220 last without being charged. Framework mention charging for at least 8 hours a week, so even if the laptop is plugged in for an hour or two a week it would have ‘enough’ charge to maybe survive four or five weeks.

If I’m not wrong it’s going to take some time and effort on the part of @Burt to play out such a scenario.

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I thought he/she was intended to replicate the issue…which would require minimal deviation from reported cases / scenario…with or without our understanding.

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I think Burt is testing how long the BIOS battery can continue to power the RTC system without requiring a charge/AC input. This isn’t Schrödinger’s cat :stuck_out_tongue:

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Struggling to understand what isn’t understood.

Yes to the fact that I didn’t state what I was trying to achieve; which is…

BACKGROUND
The original problem I had was the laptop charged to 100% ish, left for more than a day or two then when I attempted to start it it would not.
From new I had never charged it more than long enough to fully charge the main battery. Didn’t know the 24 hour stuff, no policy from Framework on this (probably is; I’m very absent minded).

The number of days left without switching on simply varied depending on my need to use the laptop.

With lots of red herrings the final analysis from reading lots of posts was that the CMOS battery was low capacity, the drain was high, and high enough to cause the laptop to fail to start after a day or three.

I and others went through a not particularly good experience with support, being provided with a number of different possibilities, wrong charging side when new, loose connections, resetting whole machine, measuring CMOS battery level etc.

THE PROBLEM
Lots of different info from Framework, but no official info or ack of the problem (please correct me here, I didn’t read all of the threads right through) but essentially charging main battery just to get it full and switching on several times a week, ends up with “It won’t power on”

THE PROPOSED “SOLUTION” (from Framework)

Charge the laptop for at least 24 hours once a month.

THE TEST
Does charging once a month for at least 24 hours (regardless of charging now and then in between) mean you have avoided the power on problem? That’s it !!

And so the way to run the test,
Charge for 24 hours or so.
Try switching on various times in the (hopefully) 30 days
Leaving the laptop 30 days untouched is unrealistic as I need to use it.
Not charging a little during the 30 days is unrealistic.
How often to check the CMOS battery is too low to allow the Laptop to start. How long is a piece of string?
Essentially short charging spells during the 30 days isn’t going to make much difference (yes I can do the sums if needed)
So… The most practical solution 9for me) is switch it on at least once a day.
See one day f it fails to start
See then if attaching the power supply (the Framework one) allows it to start.
If this fails after it does not start then open the box and check the voltage on the battery (real test would be with the battery connected so on a load.) No utility to check anything CMOS battery related, I checked with FW on this)

If necessary do the full reset stuff, CMOS and main battery disconnected.

In the meantime log (here on my own originated post) the daily situation.

Is this approach right or wrong? Who knows but at least it is something.
Different / Better ideas welcome !

BUT if you suggest a better / different idea TEST IT YOURSELF (please) !! and log the results here.

It does not matter if the idea behind the test is or apparently is wrong as often this is how something new is discovered.

Bye for now :slight_smile:

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PS The “effort” from me is to press the ON button every day :slight_smile:

O and type a few words to record the outcome.

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My understanding of the situation has been:

  1. AC power is required to boot the system if CMOS battery is drained or removed.

  2. CMOS battery drain is unusually high for this laptop and the ML1220 battery is also low in capacity.

  3. There is a Intel 11th gen bug which can be triggered by this low power state requiring a mainboard reset.

  4. CMOS battery only charges when on AC power.

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Pretty much a fine summary but

Point 2

i) The designed drain is around 30µA and would allow the battery to last some 24 days. Given that there is a report that someone left their laptop for a month then a more modest battery drain must have been the case. So I wouldn’t say it is “unusually high”

ii) The ML 1220 is used in other laptops so it may not be ‘right’ to call it “low in capacity”, although that term can be applied to a partially charged or faulty battery.

I think the issues arise from the point 4

  1. Not being able to charge from the main battery
    with the consequence of the Intel issue you mention in point 3.
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Do you have a source for this?

Using 30µA as a basis however against “standard” CR2430 and CR2450 that rate would deplete the CR2430 in about 1 year and a CR2450 in a little over 2 years comapred to the 5-10+ years most people see with these batteries I would say that is high drain.

The capacity of the ML1220 is low compared to traditional CMOS batteries and low for the job it is required to do so IMO seems fair to call it low capacity. I’m not sure the best way to word it.

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By design I don’t mean Framework use I mean manufacturer’s specs

The The CR2430 has a typical drain of 19µA at 2.9V i.e. when it is ‘fully’ charged and would last 1600 hours or around 2 years

Typical drain is not the same as designed and I have no idea of what the typical drain is for the Framework, but if the case of 1 month is to be given credit then the typical drain would be 17/30 = 0.57 / 24 = 0.023 not to far away from the 0.019.

Given that someone has managed to use the laptop after a month’s hiatus, it may well have lasted longer and reached 0.19 :slight_smile:

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I see the ML1220 is rated at capacity of 17mAh at a drain rate of 0.03mA so 24 days at that rate.

Would be good to know the actual drain they are subject in the machine. I might test this myself but it would be a long month…

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Yes I use mine multiple times a day so no testing for me.

Still it is encouraging to see at least one person to say they left if for a month without use or being plugged in and of course the efforts of @burt

Of course what is discouraging is that a casual user may allow the ML 1220 to discharge significantly and have the problems that started this topic :frowning: or worse :scream:

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Hi usernames/all,

A good healthy discussion. Please take my comments as just that, just getting closer to the problem/solution.

Very useful summary of the problem (1,2,3 & 4) , hopefully my aiding clarity not trying to split hairs the following comments…

“1” drained yes, “removed” I honestly don’t know, this may be the case as of old, where you could still run a PC just you had to input the time etc. every time you booted.

“2” the “drain and capacity” are all mixed up with, “used elsewhere without problems” "High drain is due to some (bug?) in the Framework BIOS firmware, etc. "

“3” I have not researched this as yet, but probably so. If the totally locked out sit is possible then this is odd and serious. My neighbour is a section lead at a chip designer, I will ask him.

“4” Correct, but I assume normal on other makes with possibly the same rechargeable CMOS battery. What is a great pity here is that the mobo designers didn’t think to add any monitoring, saving you (us) opening the case to check the CMOS battery state. Numerous sensors exist already on most mobo, another one here would be handy !!

Regarding the length of time a charged battery will last retaining the CMOS at whatever micro amps rate, I think the 24 days vs 30 days stats are within the various tolerances, and even Ooops “I forgot yes I did charge it last Wednesday” and yes I forgot to turn the charger off etc. If we are talking about one or two microamp difference on a battery that may have tolerances of a few % then 24 to 30 days, add the rate at which power is consumed, the state of the battery , different batches of battery etc. etc. seems like a reasonable range.

I am simply going to continue my simple testing.

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By the way, a figure of ampres, whether milli or micro etc., has no relevance to the charging of a battery unless multiplied by time :frowning:

The ML 1220 charges at 1000µA per hour. So " two microamp"/hours of charge, may take only 3 seconds of being connected

At 1000µA per hour, (1mA) a flat battery would take 17hours to charge but as the rate decreases from a design max of 1.2mA then a 24 hour period to fully charge makes sense.

So in your case if the ML1220 was down to 40% when you plugged it in then for every hour it may gain another 5% hence adding some context to the sort of critique shown by @Second_Coming

But keep up the effort, I really appreciate it.

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Not at all health discourse here! :slight_smile:

  1. I removed my ML1220 and tested this before posting. Machine will not boot until AC powered with the battery removed.

  2. Looking at my historical CMOS batteries life expectancy with relation to their capacity the FW is using a lot more power. I have a CR2032 (240mAh) from 2009 still doing it’s job…

  3. Not researched yet either, I based it on npr’s post here.

  4. I’m not sure. Might have to join other forums for laptops with the ML1220 and ask lol.

I think you are testing your used case and that is a valid test to run! I’m debating running a month long test but I would like to wait for BIOS 3.09 so i can also see how shutdown power usage has improved. I know 3.08 is floating about but I’m unsure what is and isn’t changed in that release.

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Ok…understood now. If it’s a test of issue avoidance, wouldn’t you need to first establish that your unit does in fact suffer from the issue in the first place? Maybe you’re already done that…I didn’t follow too closely.

e.g. If you’re cycling on a path, and someone tells you (hearsay!) there’s a rock on the path to avoid. You’ll want to first make sure there is in fact a rock on the path…otherwise, your attempted maneuver to avoid the rock might be for an imaginary rock.

Not trying to be a pain or anything…just pointing out what I see / don’t see. Ignore me.

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What? I would just cycle more carefully not walk the path first.

I do not want to be sure of the future or the mistakes I will make just be able to acknowledge them when I make them and recover.

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In theory yes although Framework recommend at least 6 hours per week, and the month may be less that three weeks. 23 days I would consider max. But hey someone has said the managed over? a month, so 32 days maybe

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LoL…ok… rock the size of the path’s width. (Avoid by needing to take a different path)

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I thought obstacles were to test ingenuity not to avoid.

Though avoiding a shot from a fleeing bank robber, it may be safer never to walk down a street with a bank.

But I’m not going to actively test my theories I will just see how they fair with experience.

I’m not looking forward to any experience where I have to remove the ML 1220 to this machine up and running. Just plugging in with a ‘full’ main battery will be embarassing.

My path seems pretty clear as I walk it multiple times a day and I’ve given up the bike.

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Pick battles worth fighting…not every battle.