Essentially, the options presented means Framework will need to take accountability here (whatever that entails).
If it’s a feature: It wasn’t listed. Framework didn’t sufficiently detailed out this behaviour to potential customers.
If it’s a flaw: Framework needs to repair / replace this.
In either case, however Framework wants to spin it, there needs to be forward action.
For example…If the 12th gen mainboard turns out to be solid, can we get additional discounts if we decide to upgrade? Or, maybe, this is a good time to push for Framework to engineer and sell an ITX / ATX conversion kit? That way, the board can live on…in some other form.
I’m going to be that pain-in-the-butt guy:
It doesn’t really “fix” the issue…it just “gets out of the state caused by the symptom of the issue”, or “attempt to avoid the symptom”.
The outcome of having “fixed” the issue is that the laptop can be powered up, without CMOS battery pull / board reset or USB-PD plugging in when both the CMOS battery and main battery still have charge after 12 months* or more.
(* CMOS battery, nor the main battery typically have a self-discharge of 100% within 12 months)
Ah, this I can somewhat explain:
The charge time required to charge any given capacity battery doesn’t quite directly / linearly correlate to the battery capacity. But has a closer relationship to the battery chemistry and its designed drain rate.
e.g. if the battery has a 1mAh capacity…it may still require 24 hours to charge it
Imagine if a battery’s capacity is related to the graphical lattice below:
… = 1mAh
… = 2mAh
…
The lattice run in parallel to give that capacity. The rate to charge 1 lattice, or 2 is the same…doesn’t go any faster.
The max recommended charge rate for the ML 1220 is 1.2mA so if 1mA is used it would take 17 hours and as it is voltage regulated it won’t supply 1mA continuously hence 24 hours seems reasonable.
The other note is that Framework recommend a 6 to 8 hour top up once a week if the machine is not used.
Let’s say 7 hours charging at 1mA/h equates to a loss of 7mAh for a week or the laptop is draining it at a rate of 1mAh per day or 0.05mA/h
The recommended draw is 0.03mA/h
The idea of it draining at 0.05mA/h is down to the assumed charge rate but the rate could be lower as charging is slower which would mean the draw may be near the 0.03mA/h
Individual’s can test how long the laptop can be OFF after being fully charged as recommended.
I’m not suggesting anyone does and I’ll be using mine daily so I won’t be testing.
It will be difficult to get reliable and accurate data on what users experience given the above so unless a person runs through a test with Framework’s guidance etc. then it all amounts to hearsay, sad to say.
Just trying to gather facts for my letter to Framework. I’ve done legal work and I have a daughter who is a barrister. Heard of the pirates last stand but didn’t watch.
This is the UK we have Boris the Brazen Buffoon to watch for years past and years to come, maybe.
However I would never do a class action, very American
If I find a flaw in their arguments I may personnaly take them to court. However from what I have seen in reports here there is no such justification and personnaly I haven’t experieneced a problem.
So my argument is did Framwork know about this before selling any one of the gen 11, did they consider it worth informing the buyers, if not why not etc.
I have to be very carefull with my questions if and when I get around to actaullt writing. At the moment I’m gathering info from the forum, as I have no experience of a problem.
So I have to get Framework to define the problem more carefully the way they see it. Was the charging issue an oversight, was the failure to inform an oversight, what could reasonably be expected of them as the seller and the buyers.
Not too many other options in the US when a company chooses to ignore their customers unfortunately. The only other thing that tends to work is social media pressure.
I’m pretty blown away by how poorly framework is handling this. Imagine someone in framework having a title like “Head of Customer Experience” but their job is actually the opposite of ensuring good customer experiences and instead telling their customers that it’s “final” and they should sell the machine. That’s like big evil Corp level moves. So early in the company life cycle to have jabs that low. It really bugs me.
Did they really say that or did they say you could sell it ??
Don’t forget it just hearsay to me. I would have to put that question to them if I want to use the notion that . . . . in my own query.
Note quoting other people can be a quagmire and taking bits out of context is fraught with missinterpretation.
Even publishing a whole email can be out of context if the whole converstation isn’t seen and looked at with the knowekdge of the time not now.
Wow,
I thought my FW would just turnout to be a rare case.
This is not ideal, I take my laptop into network closets and other places where there usually is not an open outlet. Wondering what the minimum power requirements are to get this fired up after a long set.
Exactly what problem do you have and have you seen the other topic specifically about ensuring the CMOS battery is fully charged if you want to leave the laptop off for a week or two or three or four ?
The problem I had (have?) is it not starting up unless ac power connected.
As a slight aside since a 24 hours charge (see below the topic I started) I have charged it twice for an hour or so just to get back to 80% and like today it started fine.
More info here
There are three main threads as far as I know, this, mine above and one or two more on CMOS inc this…
In my thread above I note the problem I had, the eventual “solution” and how I am progressing day to day whilst waiting a month before doing a 24 hour plus charge again.
Like many I have tried the “proper” way i.e. direct to support. Like many after a while when replying to them I found that I was being ignored, and provided with what appeared to be relevant information, which turned out to be irrelevant and certainly incomplete information. Loose connections, the wrong initial charging process on a DIY machine etc.
I found the incomplete part by reading the other posts I located and by being informed by others.
In no one place (possibly a part of blog by Framework? ) or a post did I find the complete picture, possibly in one post of a “support” response, seen as a long post in italics"…
Found it, this one…
In general Framework didn’t pick up on this problem, as neither they nor Intel not the CMOS software writers had a situation where they didn’t charge a battery for at least 24 hours + then have the PC off for quite a few days.
Add to this problems manifested themselves in different ways, sometimes it took the attachment of a power supply on both sides to fix it (or at least help) sometimes the complete reset procedure (main battery and CMOS battery disconnected) possibly other situations I have missed.
All I can say is read all the posts referred to here, and unlike me ! try and read ALL of each post before coming to a view.
If there was a way to list just the relevant points (haha, that depends on the individual and users vs Framework info too) then I would make such a post, but the only people who can make such a post are the owners of a forum (community) i.e. Framework.
Unfortunately, but maybe not, it’s not possible for an individual member to own and be the only person posting on a thread.
Maybe someone has a blog somewhere on this topic (problem)
Every day / time you power up the laptop…you’re essentially restarting your test case. Because the test case really is about NOT starting it for x days…then try to start it up.
So, in essence, it’s not 8th day…you’re still on the 1-day since last power up.
(Unless I’ve misunderstood your intended test case)
If powering up the laptop with no ac then I understood the ML 1220 gets no charge including the main battery.
In which case I see no difference in if the laptop is OFF for days or running on batterey for days.
The query I thought was how long can the ML 1220 last without being charged. Framework mention charging for at least 8 hours a week, so even if the laptop is plugged in for an hour or two a week it would have ‘enough’ charge to maybe survive four or five weeks.
If I’m not wrong it’s going to take some time and effort on the part of @Burt to play out such a scenario.
