That is a good point. I have seen about 4-5 Framework 16’s in my life, and they were all different! Each of them had its own small quirks. Like artisan items.
I’ll also add, this ‘range’ of variances / tolerances that none of the 4-5 FL16 seem the same is Framework’s way of (whether intentionally or unintentionally) having a very relaxed QC. Essentially let the user’s be the QA party…and see what sticks. “Hey, customer 26165, is this unit ‘good enough’ for you?” In a way, we’ve seen that with FL13 releases in the past (IMO).
Imagine if, say, Intel, didn’t have CPU binning of i3 - i9… and you received the processor to later find out you only have 6 cores instead of 8. That’s what kind of happening here. Or you’re just waiting for a processor laptop lottery.
it’s probably the thinness of the mid plate. It’s only so thick, if you push down on it hard enough you can end up elongating the plate and end up causing it to warp. Especially for a heavy typer.
I am not a heavy typer, not on this keyboard. And I probably don’t really care about the minute bending.
Did you ever install the keyboard deflection kit by chance?
They probably would bin the core, but you will find out your particular one will crash when it turbo to 5.3, but 5.1 is fine. That’s probably a better ananlogy.
I don’t think … I think there are high expectations for the machine for the price, especially since the Lenovo P16 I learned is $900 with the same chip, but instead of a 165Hz 1600p screen it’s a 60Hz 1200p (touch?)
That’s maybe $100 to $200 on the cost (of the laptop), and maybe a bigger battery, the price start to sort of make sense.
Gen 1? Or are you talking about the P16s? That’s a great price if it’s available in your region.
One of the strong reasons that I’m still sticking with Thinkpads (mostly) is because of the frequency of the BIOS updates…like this for the P16 Gen 1:
Package ID UEFI BIOS (BIOS ID) ECP (ECP ID) Rev. Issue Date
------------- ------------------- --------------- ---- ----------
N3FUJ15W 1.28 (N3FET43W) 1.12 (N3FHT24W) 01 2024/07/29
N3FUJ14W 1.27 (N3FET42W) 1.11 (N3FHT23W) 01 2024/06/17
N3FUJ13W 1.26 (N3FET41W) 1.11 (N3FHT23W) 01 2024/04/02
N3FUJ12W_V2 1.23 (N3FET38W) 1.11 (N3FHT23W) 02 2023/12/15
N3FUJ12W 1.23 (N3FET38W) 1.11 (N3FHT23W) 01 2023/10/18
N3FUJ11W 1.22 (N3FET37W) 1.10 (N3FHT22W) 01 2023/09/13
N3FUJ10W 1.21 (N3FET36W) 1.08 (N3FHT20W) 01 2023/07/12
N3FUJ09W 1.20 (N3FET35W) 1.08 (N3FHT20W) 01 2023/06/15
N3FUJ08W 1.19 (N3FET34W) 1.08 (N3FHT20W) 01 2023/04/06
N3FUJ07W 1.17 (N3FET32W) 1.07 (N3FHT19W) 01 2023/01/12
N3FUJ06W 1.16 (N3FET31W) 1.07 (N3FHT19W) 01 2022/12/05
N3FUJ05W 1.15 (N3FET30W) 1.07 (N3FHT19W) 01 2022/11/08
N3FUJ04W 1.14 (N3FET29W) 1.06 (N3FHT18W) 01 2022/10/21
N3FUJ03W 1.13 (N3FET28W) 1.06 (N3FHT18W) 01 2022/09/01
N3FUJ02W 1.11 (N3FET26W) 1.06 (N3FHT18W) 01 2022/08/12
N3FUJ01W 1.07 (N3FET22W) 1.05 (N3FHT17W) 01 For Factory Use
Oh, here in Framework 16 land we are still patiently awaiting a new BIOS update with several relevant security fixes, and we are still running a very early version of the AMD AGESA firmware, missing several fixes. LVFS support is nice, but it is not useful if we do not get any software updates to actually use it 
Sometimes I wonder, what happened to this?
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“To put this lack of updates in context, Dell’s XPS 13 9315 and Lenovo’s X1 Carbon Gen 10 use the same 12th-gen Intel processors. In the same time period, Dell released 14 BIOS updates for its system, and Lenovo released 13. Many of these updates fix system-specific issues that wouldn’t be relevant to the Framework Laptop, but they also collectively patch a long list of Common Vulnerabilities and Exposures (CVEs) that affect all PCs using that particular generation of Intel CPU or other common components.”
That’s some brutal stats.
“Framework will need to step up its game, especially if it wants to sell more laptops to businesses—a lucrative slice of the PC industry that Framework is actively courting. By this summer or fall, we’ll have some idea of whether its efforts are succeeding.”
…and we’re now in Q4. The idea is forming.
It really is multiple uphill battles…left, right and centre, for Framework. It’s extremely hard to compete. But damn, is it winning any battle other than having a repairable laptop* (Stability / reliability, features, QA, compatibility and value aside)?
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As I read on reddit, framework 16 got a lot of returns and that was being a big problem for framework.
Perhaps the system has failed and there is no interest in supporting it.
It is not only the lack of bios updates, but also requests from users or companies.
I even still remember that a user, a businessman, had to present his case on reddit because his situation with support was desperate.
It is true that framework did not promise anything, but if framework 16 has really been a failure, the lack of bios, software and other features requested by users would be normal.
I think that other reddit users, we may get some bios update, but we will not get software to control the fans or new hardware like a new GPU.
Probably and sadly, framework 16 has been a failure.
I would have said Linux support, but as of late, not even that seems to be working fine. I have had to open yet another Support ticket because of continued and constant crashes and artifacts. Exactly the kind of stuff I wanted to avoid by going with a Linux-native laptop. I won’t say it isn’t, since there is a chance that these crashes are hardware in nature rather than software, but eh. My friend with a Ryzen 7040 series HP EliteBook has had not only a much smoother Linux experience, but multiple BIOS updates, with a more up to date AGESA version, all delivered through the LVFS / fwupd.
The idea I have gotten over these few months is that Framework really needs more capital as they just can’t keep up with the speed at this point. Linux friendliness was a nice selling point, but now that the bigger vendors are starting to slowly get in the game, even this is becoming tough.
It’s also possible that the hardware partners make this hard. Framework Laptops seem to use InsydeH2O firmware. Among hardcore Linux users and people comfortable with firmware DSDT patches and all that, this UEFI implementation gets terrible reputation, and it is most often found in the cheapest most bottom of the barrel laptops. You will see Insyde firmware on cheap Acers, Chinese laptops like Huawei and Xiaomi, or customer-facing Lenovo laptop, where the cheaper and more budget options use Insyde, but ThinkPads and the more premium options use Phoenix or American Megatrends / Aptio. I decided to ignore this piece of info when getting the Framework, going in with an open mind maybe thinking that Insyde is better now than it was years ago, but… if Insyde means firmware upgrades few and far between, outdates AGESA versions and firmware bugs on Linux, then no, nothing has changed.
I want to say I still have faith for this machine but the overwhelming part of me is unfortunately starting to feel a lot of buyer’s remorse. The Ideapad 5 Pro 16 with the same Ryzen 7 7840HS and no official Linux support I recommended to a friend of mine for using Linux on it turned out to be a significantly stabler and smoother experience at €1000 vs €2100. It’s hard not to think I could have spent half the cash to have less problems and overall a better experience, modularity be damned. I do still hold a sliver of hope something will happen, though. Like I manage to get an RMA to fix my most annoying issues and/or firmware releases finally get on track. But I know that the most likely outcome is that I will upgrade very prematurely and get something else, ultimately accepting the risky buy turned out to be, indeed, risky; and a significant financial loss. It’s not the end of the world, it’s just money and money can be made back. What feels worse to me is that I don’t like the current direction of the laptop industry not even one bit, and Framework is what I see as the last hope to turn things around. So far, my last hope for a better laptop industry seems to be a case of great idea and questionable implementations. 
I’ve mentioned this a couple of times on the forum in the past:
For a laptop to ‘worth’ repairing, it needs to be a product that people want to repair first. That means, it fundamentally needs to be a decent laptop first and foremost. A laptop that you can repair, not a repairable laptop (if that makes sense).
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Eh, yes. I think the Framework 13 has gotten to a point where it delivers that but, on the 16, it’s luck-based. If you rolled a bunch of dice right and ended up with a machine that is well-built, has good tolerances, not a lot of chassis flex and without the infamous thermal problem, then I truly do think that it will be in your best interest to repair it and you will want to repair it. Au contraire, if you get something much worse, then you will constantly feel as if it’s a little bit “broken in general” even when it’s working properly, so when you get some real hardware failure, then the temptation to just get something else would be very understandable.
If a machine has been good and satisfactory, then it makes sense to repair it. But, unless you are in a bad financial situation, why would you throw even more money at a machine that has only given you constant problems of different nature? It comes to a point where you need to realize that, metaphorically, you passed up the ability to checkmate long ago, but you can still end up in stalemate if you play your moves right. Which means: control your damage, accept your losses, and accept that carrying on with your current strategy might very well be worse long-term than purposefully opting for an undesirable other strategy that still isn’t the best case scenario.
This problem can be solved with; a better design, better tolerances / QA, and more care about the firmware updates.
That pretty much is me with the first FL13 at the moment. Like, why would I? I’ve been meaning to wait for the FL13 line to get mature and catches up with the market competitions…and it’s been 3 years. I even planed a pre-order to get the Core Ultra Series 1 upgrade (DIY, not just the mainboard)…but eventually just caved in on the strong pricing competition from Lenovo (went with another ThinkPad again this year). For me, the frequent, dependable BIOS updates and up-to 5-year NBD on-site support, and stability, and no unboxing lottery…trumps all the quirks I’m seeing on the forum.
Framework: Building laptops for enthusiasts, by enthusiasts. It’s going to run out of enthusiast markets soon if the product and support don’t improve fast. There’s only so much patience left with the fan base.
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Yeah, I am with you. I have decided that, at the first serious hardware failure, I am just going to get an Elitebook.
Do searches on reddit, there are more than one user who says they are having problems with returns.
In any case, seeing that they have not corrected many errors in the production phase, I suppose that it will not have had much success.
It is also true that framework is a non-transparent company that seems to have problems in several of its areas.
Here’s my 2 pence worth.
A) The AMD Wi-Fi/Bluetooth module is crappy, I had to swap it to an intel card (no issues since)
B) The spacers either side of the trackpad are wonky and uneven, they make the laptop look and feel cheap.
C) It’s a missed opportunity and a minor crime that Framework hasn’t made an Outlink GPU bay adapter for the FW 16.
Though, I’d like to stress that overall I’m very happy with the laptop and I’m looking forward to seeing future improvements and upgrades to the platform.
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So far my Framework 16 was actually pretty great. I’ll write a gushing review of the hardware in this thread later. It’s everything I wanted it to be and more.
What I agree with is the Framework’s communication strategy. Or the absence of thereof.
Issues are not mentioned officially until a solution is either already deployed (deflection kit) or is fully formulated (61wh battery). Many issues are thusly not addressed officially at all, like the subpar paintjob on the magnesium part, or some FW16 experiencing degraded performance over time due to a thermal solution not performing well. We are left guessing whether the company will address something in the next generation, or start silently shipping better quality parts, or what have you. This is a very corporate, Apple-like (anti-Framework) behavior.
Similarly, the openness of communication is lacking when it comes to opening specifications of the laptops. There’s no official source for the post error codes on later laptops. The open data about mechanical and electrical stuff gets released incomplete, if you need stuff that’s not there, you need to find a Framework employee that’s going to be interested enough to release the info you need. So, the scope of what you get for each new system is never defined and varied per-system.
The source code repos are ghost towns - PRs are just hanging there unanswered, unclosed. No official guideline is present on whether PRs are welcome or not. Many repos are left with their upstream readme files unchanged (QMK, EC) adding to newcomer’s confusion.
These things definitely make me feel like the company is severely underinvesting on the communication front. The thinking may be that the Community will pick up the pieces and build an ecosystem around it of its own but seems that Framework hasn’t reached a critical mass for it yet, and thusly needs to seed some of the effort still. (While what I see is less official Framework involvement with the community right now than 2 years ago.)
All I can say is let’s see how it goes. Hope they’re not just slowly going under.
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It’s very hard or impossible to extrapolate based on comments online. Framework almost certainly has the data and will not release it.
Can and should we hold them accountable to continue to improve? Of course.
I don’t expect that we ever will get a definitive answer, but I suppose debating it and other things is part of the reason that we are all here. I hope that the company has a long and spectacular run. I try to hang onto what little is left of my sanity by occasionally reminding myself that things are never as good or as bad as they seem.
Have a great day!
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That is a given. It is outside of the scope of this thread to try to make inference of factual data, and it would be legally defamatory if that was the case. I see it more of, trying to get a rough idea with a margin of error attached
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Noticed that Framework is hiring for a position that would alleviate some of the things I described. Definitely wish them success in finding good people quickly! (Shame I’m not in Taiwan, I’d have applied )
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