Now Available for Pre-order in UK, Germany, and France

yes that’s the one. it was really neat for importing goods from china until the EU decided to collect VAT on orders under ~25€ as well. If you go to their german site for example (https://de.aliexpress.com/) there is a dropdown menu at the top where you can select your language, country and currency separately. I assumed that was similar to what you had in mind.

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Ah okay, yes right. Now I understand it. I didn’t know the site and I haven’t used the site. And the site looks very good for Framework to model. Thanks for sharing it!

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This is great news for me as a person who broke wifi antenna cables and wifi card at once and then bought those again. So many great news today. Thanks Framework team!

I agree. It’s quite a flop on Framework’s part. And the whole announcement is rather underwhelming: after such a delay since the launch in the US, they only managed to open pre-orders in 3 (three) European countries. For everybody else, turns out there wasn’t much to wait for.

I’ve been watching what Framework’s doing with interest, as they did get some things right, and I’d very much like such an idea to succeed, but I’m afraid it’s high time for them to up their game if they want customers like me. While I’m not in need of another laptop, I’d have ordered one long time ago just to support the idea, if it were available to me. But at this moment, considering so much time has passed and it still isn’t, I won’t. Even if I actually needed to change my laptop, I’d just get something else instead.

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I don’t quite understand why I can’t order from Germany when my shipping address is Dutch.
Very frustrating, since there is no acceptable good reason for it.
The EU is one big open market, explicitly to ensure we have the freedom to order/buy anything in any European country.

And now it’s -annoyingly- a disabled dropdown menu on the website, that prevents me from ordering. Without any legal or logical rationale.
Why? If the shipping cost is 10 euro’s more, just charge it…

I’ve been waiting for half a year, and now seem to be missing out even on the European February batch :frowning: And for no good reason, it seems… I love German documentation. :shushing_face:

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@BlueBird I get your frustration, but I think you demand a lot from a startup consisting of 25 people as we speak; especially in times like these. If a company like Lenovo or Dell had these kind of hiccups, I’d be aboard with you, but I think the Framework team deserves a little more patience and goodwill.

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@Mark1 I completely understand that you’re frustrated with this…

I’ve had a few lectures on legalities on trade in Germany&EU in my university.
And unfortunately, whilst it’s all “one free open market”, the EU still has very different legal requirements for each and every country. Trade is tax-free, but you’ll still have to comply with the laws&regulations of each individual european country.

Simple things like VAT can be different in each country. Even the currency can be.
I can’t speak for Framework, but I think thats mostly where the problem lies.
That info doesn’t help you, but I hope it at least can provide a bit of context on why this is taking so annoyingly long.

TLDR; EU is one big market, but individual EU countries are still very much their own legal beasts.

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I live in the US but I agree with @BlueBird here

The EU is supposed to be free of internal trade barriers, the same as US states

We would be pissed if they didn’t offer shipping to all 50 states, why shouldn’t they be able to support all eurozone countries? I imagine the way the post works is similar enough to the US Postal Service

I’d like a better explanation if only for curiosity’s sake

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@Leon_Matthes The rules indeed are not the same in each European country. Nor is the VAT. But the European agreement is: if it complies to the rules of a specific European country, it can be sold from that country to any European citizen.
So in Europe: If I decide to buy in Germany, the German rules apply to the product, the VAT, the warranty, and to my purchase as a whole.
But it’s up to me to decide if I want that or not. That’s how Europe works.

The fact that the shipping address is Dutch, matters in not a single way. Except for about 7 euros increased shipping cost.
The only thing standing between me and a framework laptop, is a disabled dropdown menu. How frustrating.

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I can’t think of a better one than the one @Leon_Matthes provided. However, I will admit that my goodwill mostly stems from the transparency and good decisions the Framework team have put up so far.

I can’t imagine that they’d purposefully exclude countries for no good reason, that would be bad from a profit standpoint, let alone PR. And so the only two viable options would be that a) it’s not possible/viable for some reason or b) it is possible, but they don’t know how. And while I think a is far more likely, I will not give them too much blame for b either, because again, they are a young and small startup.

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I suppose I should have made it clear I was soliciting one from Framework. I certainly don’t think Framework is excluding other European countries arbitrarily, but the lack of detail might give that impression. It is up to Framework to correct that. We are all adults here; I think everyone can understand almost any explanation given.

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@Mark1 I’m not 100% certain on this, so maybe someone more knowledgeable can help with this discussion here, but I think that’s actually the other way around.

If you buy, from i.e. the Netherlands, The Netherlands charge VAT, not Germany, and all Dutch laws apply. IIRC that’s to protect you as the consumer, so you’re not exposed to laws that you might be unfamiliar with (i.e. German laws).
Were you a business customer, you could choose what laws you want to use, but as a consumer, I think that’s either not possible, or at least legally challenging.

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@Leon_Matthes This document gives some more background:

Quote:

There is no difference between customers anywhere in the EU
While you are free to define your general terms and conditions of sale, including limitations on delivery, all your customers based in the EU must have the same access to goods as your local customers.

About VAT: Private customers pay VAT in the country of purchase. Businesses/Traders have to pay it in the country of destination.

The big question is; why did they apparently opt for the “limitations on delivery” clause to overrule the “all customers based in EU must have same access” rule. What’s so problematic about adding a shipping label to another country.

It even seems more unlawful not to offer it, if you read the regulations carefully :crazy_face:

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@Mark1 That’s interesting, VAT actually seems to be similar.

Quote regarding sales to consumers:

If you are an online seller, including on online marketplaces and platforms, you can register in one EU country for the declaration and payment of VAT on all distance sales of goods and cross-border supplies of services to customers in the EU.

So VAT seems to be handled by the country the company resides in. Which is honestly very weird. Wouldn’t companies start moving their heardquarters to wherever VAT is cheapest, so they can push prices down? I think there’s something we’re missing here :thinking:

No word on which laws apply regarding warranties, etc. Even though the general 2-year warranty should hopefully cover most, if not all cases in Europe…

@Leon_Matthes Indeed! That’s a risk that Europe took and accepted. But it’s in fact the case, as you found out.

Of course:
There are slightly increased shipping costs.
And the annoyance when you have to send it back for warranty issues to the country where you purchased it.
And the fact that the regulations of the country you bought it from, are leading for your purchase. They can be annoying, restricting, or unknown to consumers who then decide to not take that risk.
Also some countries have specific rules for online purchasing, that take away the incentive to buy from a different country.

For example in the Netherlands, you are very well protected as a consumer when you buy online. It far outweighs the small VAT difference of buying abroad :slight_smile:

In any case, enough EU weirdness for today :sweat_smile:
I’ll head to bed. I wish everyone from the newly available countries happy ordering, and hopefully they’ll open up in the rest of Europe quickly as well!

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Just one last reply:

This page: MwSt. – Mehrwertsteuer - Your Europe.

Whilst it’s unfortunately in German, claims that this only applies to businesses that only ship less than a certain Euro amount (35000€ or 100000€) per year into any given country.
So once Framework ships more than, let’s say 35 laptops at 1000€ each to the Netherlands, the VAT is charged in the Netherlands.

So they did think of that loophole :thinking:

In einem anderen EU-Land online einkaufen

Wenn Sie in einem anderen EU-Land Waren kaufen, die in Ihr Wohnsitzland geliefert werden sollen, können Sonderregeln gelten. Wenn das Unternehmen, von dem Sie kaufen, Waren über einem bestimmten Wert in Ihr Land, in das die Waren geliefert werden, verkauft, kann es die Mehrwertsteuer nicht in dem Land berechnen, in dem Sie den Kauf tätigen.

Stattdessen muss es die Mehrwertsteuer des Landes anwenden, in das die Waren geliefert werden – MwSt. des Bestimmungslandes. Als Schwelle für länderübergreifende Verkäufe haben die einzelnen EU-LänderPDF-Dokument 35 000 Euro oder 100 000 Euro festgelegt. Dies bedeutet, dass die meisten größeren Online-Händler, die innerhalb der EU liefern, die Mehrwertsteuer des Bestimmungslandes anwenden müssen.

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I’m fairly certain that this is only talking about the fact that you don’t have to separately register for each country individually; yet still the rates of individual countries of each customer would apply. I’ve found more information that’s probably indicating that this would be the case here:

Quote

What has changed since 1 July 2021 and how does it affect you?

There are two main areas of change for online sellers that you should be aware of:

New EU-wide threshold

The existing thresholds for distance sales of goods to buyers in other EU Member States (EUR 35 000 or 100 000, depending on the Member State) has been abolished and replaced by a new EU-wide threshold of EUR 10 000.

Below this threshold, you can continue to apply the domestic rules for VAT (including the SME exemption scheme) on your cross-border sales. If your sales are above this threshold, you are liable for VAT in the Member State where your buyers are located. But you can easily register in the One Stop Shop (OSS) – where you can declare and pay the VAT due in other Member States.

End to VAT exemption on importation

[…]

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@Leon_Matthes Argh; let’s at least hope their lawyers figure out how to quickly add other countries. I’ve been hitting “refresh page” daily on the framework site for months now. :heart_eyes:

My 2012 macbook air is still running like a champ, with it’s 3rd new battery, but I want to support the framework initiative. (And get me some more pixel real-estate).

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The site I quoted above mentiones a somewhat recent change that made this limit uniformly be 10’000€, and perhaps – as far as I can tell – a single limit for all EU-wide sales combined (outside of the country you’re shipping from, I suppose). [They really do a bad job explaining what exactly the limit measuring; in any case, framework would most definitely quickly go over that limit.]

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