In order to keep this thread on topic, we are moving all discussion of the religious, cultural and political significance of the swastika here.
Please keep the discussion respectful.
Referring to your second quote, and sure, I am being argumentative, but feel like supporting the issue of the fist being used.
If you think it is off topic then why did you comment further and hence provoke a response?
Also what is this ‘we have had enough’, clearly you didn’t, and you do not speak for all the other people on this forum.
OK now down to the detail.
The symbol you consider mostly used by crazy people is mostly as a religious symbol for hundreds if not thousands of years, and are you sure you want to call the Hindus, Jains and Buddhists???
the latter is related to, well, (mostly) crazy people, but the former isn’t.
It continues to be used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions, including Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism
Sure it was used by the the German political party in the 1930s + but that was never the majority of people.
The fist is usually denotes the use of power in a fight and I would agrue is a less benign symbol than the religious symbol that I can’t name as this post gets automatically hidden.
That the fist is popular in recent times doesn’t equate to it being benign.
And the common use seems to be to gather people under the flag of what they want, to call it their rights and to pressure other people to join and follow the movement.
I’ve never like the use of the fist in real terms of punching people nor in it’s use as an icon. A fist with a hammer or a spanner is very ugly when used as a call to gather people together.
I do not like to increase the use of laws that can only be enforced by violence, whether they use a ‘that’ symbol or Hammer and Sycle or a Fist with spanner.
I will resist alone any attempt to get me to join a group or gang no matter how ‘for the good of all’ it claims to be.
The symbol may change but it’s always a call to arms by those not prepared to work out their own consumer indulgences as individually each of us is weak.
It’s inevitable people join forces to their own betterment, but that is always at the expense of others.
So when someone has experienced the group, peer, national or religious pressure it is understandable they do not want to see images of that.
Saying all that peoplr are free to form Groups and Gangs. Each one may be a threat to some but people are free to raise their fists in anger, I just feel that it is an unpleasant vision to see such demonstrations of power.
the latter is related to, well, (mostly) crazy people, but the former isn’t.
My argument it is the former, or the fist, which has the greater proportion of crazy people
@amoun The symbal Hitler used is not actually swastika but a twister version of it called as “Hakencreuz” I hate the fact that people don’t recognise swastika as thousands of year old and used symbal instead of recognise it as something else used by hitler which is many fold less durations of what swastika is really being used since. As a hindu we draw swastika everyday near home temple. U can visit any hindu, buddhist, jain or sikh house and u will se swastikas there. I agree with u and it is the intention not the symbal actually. The intention of use should be questioned not the symbal itself. It’s sad to see that some countries have banned the symbal and hindus have to fight in courts to win the right to use it. Some people don’t even say “Swastika” cuz probly they fear if they will get banned or something by using it. I hope I don’t get banned here by talking about this as the founder and CEO of this company itself is a hindu. I will suggest watching this youtube video to all talking about Swastika. Also I hope I didn’t say anything stupid and if I did then please enlighten me as I am not expert on the topic. The Untold Story of SWASTHIKA || A film about the true history of Swasthika || Project SHIVOHAM - YouTube
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Thanks for pointing that out. I’ve been to Buddhist temples with swastikas but never noticed the tilt of the hakenkreuz until you pointed it out to me.
There are many uses in Europe, pre the Socialist German Workers Party use and not all had the main arms vertically and horizontally orientated. It’s just that Socialist group did rotate it 45°
It can not be missed that the ‘socialist’ and ‘freedom’ fighters today use a fist although some are called right wing.
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The full name of that party was “National Socialist German Workers’ Party”. Not to be confused with socialists (see this Wikipedia article for details: National Socialists). Those two are VERY different things.
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…6 million jews might disagree with that take.
This is a weird topic – why is there a dedicated thread for debating swastikas in the Framework forum?
EDIT:
I should probably explain that I’m aware of the religious context behind the symbology. Unfortunately the symbol was used widely by people who commit mass genocide, so many people are going to assume a certain ideology when they see that symbol displayed.
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Right there with you - I had a post in draft trying to ask that same question, but couldn’t articulate it as clearly at your have.
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This thread exists because the thread referenced in the first post was getting off-topic. A warning was posted but ignored.
Rather than delete posts (which we try very hard not to do!) it was split off into its own thread.
We’ll be monitoring very closely. There have been no disrespectful posts so far - please flag any that cross the line.
We try not to be the post police and would rather not delete posts, regardless what our personal opinion may be on the subject.
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There was a comment in another topic where someone posted how uncomfortable they were seeing the fist symbol on some desktop background image etc. They had been ‘traumatised’ I imagine with some may ‘communist’ regime.
This lead to a comparison with this ‘other’ symbol.
And yes the Jews generally have a problem with the symbol as used by the German Socialst Working Party etc. but ten times or maybe 100 times that use the cross with arms etc. People from all over the planet have used it for maybe thousands of years.
It is still used en masse in India and Asian surrounds and seems over the top to see the symbol as a problem for those brought up as Jews, German or Brought up with this notion of hatred.
There is a difference: That one which people take as offensive, the German one, is different in that the arms of the cross are not horizontal and vertical, but that difference of course isn’t sufficient in the west to overcome the stigma and bigotry
In that sense the genuine religious symbol and it’s users can be ostracized by some of the population which amounts to intolerance of those largely western and Jewish adherents.
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I recognize that, but it does not prevent bans on Swastikas (by some countries) just because of its use by Nazi Germany
(Intriguingly, looking up “Hakencreuz” return the result of “this is Swastika, but in german”)
The cases involving Nazi Germany do frequently see it being rotated 45 degrees, so it wouldn’t be unfair to say that they are different symbols
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They are two different symbols. Germans probably failed to translate it correctly. Calling “Swastika” as “Hakencreuz” in any language is very disrespectful to it’s original meaning and history. I don’t have any issue with any country banning a symbol. Only problem is hindus in that country get hate and have to face racism for no reason except the fact that people think they are supporters of Nazi as their own goverment and laws support the same belief. I hope it get solved soon. Any such situation related to anything needs to be solved.
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The difference is minimal. Once a symbol is globally recognised it’s fixed. The cross of Jesus still has the same connotation even on it’s side, like a tree falling over in the wind. Only in maths does the + and x have a clear difference.
Sadly this German Socialist Party symbol will retain it’s stigma until people are free to use it in one of the original forms.
After all guns do not kill people though people kill and can use guns.
Maybe we could ban the images of knives and guns, oh and maybe the root of all evil money and men, or women depending upon your religion.
Oh! and ban the use of the words ‘he’ and ‘she’: such sexist rhetoric.
Bring your guns and knives to the party but please don’t wave that obnoxious flag.
But the problem is that a gun or a knife does not equate to belonging to a gang or a party, whereas symbol or flag does.
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While I understand the Framework team tries not to delete posts, and that this is an offtopic category-- this seems like a topic that is so ridiculously out of pocket I’m not sure why it wouldn’t be removed.
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It’s not that off topic. For example. Can I ask framework to start selling custom laptops with Swastik on it? It depends. Doesn’t matter how people use a symbal. Swatika clearly ha e a meaning and historical importance to it.
The forum is about people, not Framework, people who are interested in other people who are interested in the Framework and would like some help.
A lot of the help is about mechanics, some about software, some about design (where this fits > as some pointed out they didn’t like the ‘fist’ logo presented by another user.
And of course there the general whinging posts that ask for attention, so why not this legitamate and growing concern about bigotry.
The Jains even have it on their flag
