The Keyboard

[BrightShadow_Denmark]

Waiting for the model with:
Danish (Scandinavian) keyboard layout
(Northern EU)

[volcanicmaggies]

Hi @nrp first, props on the launch of Marketplace, it looks great! I know in a previous thread people were asking for DVORAK and such and the response was generally that there needs to be a sustained demand for that to be produced. I am wondering though if there are any plans to have a Russian keyboard? I’m learning Russian and would like to be able to use my laptop to write. Of course, I might just carefully write the Russian letters underneath the English keyboard, but just wondering if that’s a demographic that will have a keyboard in the future!

[Sambal]

Until a Swedish keyboard layout is available, I’m considering getting the English International keyboard and purchasing keyboard stickers to get the desired layout. Is the size of the keycaps available?

[Jonathan_Reeve]

So there are already a few comments here about this, but I’d love to add my +1 for a Colemak layout, an ortholinear layout, and/or an ergonomic layout, like the Atreus. There are so many people that use Colemak these days, but no integrated laptop keyboards that I know of that support it.

Mechanical key switches would also be remarkable, and a total game-changer.

[tassadarforaiur]

Now that I’ve got my framework, no complaints about the keyboard itself, but I truly hate the trackpad, and regret going this direction vs getting a crappy thinkpad. And it’s not the fault of your particular touchpad, I hate it as much as I hate my xps 9710’s touchpad.

Please try to find a way to get a trackpoint. I would gladly pay $250 for an alternate bottom chasis, keyboard plate, and keyboard assembly bundle that included a trackpoint. The original chasis would be in the recycling bin the instant I got a shipping notification.

Replacement chasis to accomodate extra thickness necessary for trackpoint.

[David_Eastham]

@Jonathan_Reeve

I’d love to add my +1 for a Colemak layout, an ortholinear layout, and/or an ergonomic layout, like the Atreus .

Welcome to the Discourse, Jonathan. Your +1 will be gratefully received on my Atreus thread! I am delighted by the interest it has generated so far and hopeful it might catch the eye of someone with the required chops to take it forward.

[junaruga]

@tassadarforaiur

Please try to find a way to get a trackpoint. I would gladly pay $250 for an alternate bottom chasis, keyboard plate, and keyboard assembly bundle that included a trackpoint. The original chasis would be in the recycling bin the instant I got a shipping notification.

I sometimes see people who want trackpoint. I am curious to know why they like the trackpoint. Because I am using Thinkpad X1 Carbon where the keyboard has the trackpoint. But I am not comfortable with it. Because I have to push the trackpoint with some power. I also see the speed of the cursor by the trackpoint is slow, while the speed of the cursor by the mouse is ok.

I was also not comfortable with clicking left/right click area on the trackpad. I often mistook the left click with the right click, while I am comfortable with the trackpad on my Macbook air where there is no right click area on the trackpad.

But recently I found on Linux there is a feature called clickfinger to disable middle/right click area replacing it as left click area on the trackpad, and enable right click as double click on any area on the trackpad.

I am not sure if the desktop environment such as Gnome or KDE support this feature as a GUI config. In my case, as I am using the i3 window manager where it does not support as config, I needed to set the config as a X window level. Here is my config to enable it for someone who is interested in it. The Option "ClickMethod" "clickfinger" is the config. I am comfortable with the trackpad on Linux now.

$ cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/40-trackpad.conf 
# https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/
# https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Libinput
Section "InputClass"
        Identifier "libinput touchpad"
        Driver "libinput"
        MatchIsTouchpad "on"
        MatchDevicePath "/dev/input/event*"
        Option "Tapping" "False"
        Option "TappingDrag" "True"
        # Trackpad no longer has middle and right button areas and instead
        # two-finger click is a context click and three-finger click is a middle click
        # https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/clickpad-softbuttons.html#clickfinger-behavior
        Option "ClickMethod" "clickfinger"
        # Like Mac.
        Option "NaturalScrolling" "True"
EndSection

[junaruga]

I am not sure if the desktop environment such as Gnome or KDE support this feature as a GUI config.

It seems the desktop environment Gnome? has this feature as “Fingers” as GUI config.

Touchpad Not Registering Clicks

What is the difference between “touch to click” and “physical clicks”? Do you mean the amount of pressure? Mine was acting up again the other day. I went into gnome-tweaks and noticed that no choice for mouse click emulation was selected (not even disabled). I selected Area and so far it seems to be working again. Not sure yet if it is temporary. [Screenshot from 2021-08-30 21-32-24]

[tassadarforaiur]

It’s hard to fully describe, but on of the huge factors, is that I don’t have to reposition my hand. my right hand moves the index and thumb slightly to go to trackpad and buttons, but my hand overall stays in the typing position.

also drag operations are much better on trackpoint.

[bmcdonnell]

@junaruga

I sometimes see people who want trackpoint. I am curious to know why they like the trackpoint.

Along the lines of tassadarforaiur’s reply, the more keyboard navigation you do, the nicer it is to not have to remove your hand(s) from the keyboard to utilize the “mouse” pointer.

I believe trackpoints are almost always combined with physical buttons with tactile feedback for left, right, and middle click, below the spacebar / above the track pad. (If not (almost) always, they certainly should be.) So you just move your right index finger over a bit from the J key to the trackpoint, and your thumb down a bit from the spacebar to the click buttons.

Also I really hate the “newfangled” trackpads with no physical buttons. Really annoying when you have to press it in to click. Terrible haptic feedback. And IME, you often have to drag your finger across several times to cover the length of the screen. The trackpoint plus physical buttons has none of those issues.

Admittedly at my desk, I use an external keyboard and mouse, so I’m dealing with the lack of trackpoint. But that’s probably my biggest gripe about the FrameWork laptop.

Because I am using Thinkpad X1 Carbon where the keyboard has the trackpoint. But I am not comfortable with it. Because I have to push the trackpoint with some power. I also see the speed of the cursor by the trackpoint is slow, while the speed of the cursor by the mouse is ok.

I’m not sure if the force required on yours is any different from older models. You may get used to it?

The pointer movement speed should be configurable in software. Probably/hopefully separately for the trackpoint vs the mouse, but I don’t recall.

I was also not comfortable with clicking left/right click area on the trackpad. I often mistook the left click with the right click, while I am comfortable with the trackpad on my Macbook air where there is no right click area on the trackpad.

Does it not have physical buttons between the spacebar and the trackpad? If not, then that’s bad design. My Thinkpad X201 does have them. I think moving the pointer with the trackpoint and clicking on the trackpad would be awkward (especially if it’s one of those new ones and you have to physically press the whole pad to click).

[junaruga]

@tassadarforaiur @bmcdonnell Thanks for the explanation. I can understand the benfit of the trackpoint is that we don’t need to reposition our hand.

I’m not sure if the force required on yours is any different from older models. You may get used to it?

Does it not have physical buttons between the spacebar and the trackpad? If not, then that’s bad design. My Thinkpad X201 does have them. I think moving the pointer with the trackpoint and clicking on the trackpad would be awkward (especially if it’s one of those new ones and you have to physically press the whole pad to click).

Yeah, my thinkpad’s trackpoint and the physical left/right buttons are exactly like yours on the photo you shared. But I am not used to it.

The pointer movement speed should be configurable in software. Probably/hopefully separately for the trackpoint vs the mouse, but I don’t recall.

Yeah, now I did set the following config to change the speed of the trackpoint as faster, that is a separated config from the touchpad’s one. Now I feel that I can move the cursor with less power too. Though I am still not used to it.

X11 trackpoint config

libinput driver based config

$ cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/50-trackpoint.conf 
# Trackpoint
# To change the setting at realtime.
# $ sudo libinput list-devices
# Check the trackpoint id number.
# $ xinput list
# $ xinput set-prop 14 "libinput Accel Speed" "0.5"
# https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/TrackPoint
# https://askubuntu.com/questions/948373/change-cursor-speed-in-libinput
Section "InputClass"
        Identifier "libinput trackpoint"
        Driver "libinput"
        MatchIsPointer "on"
        MatchDevicePath "/dev/input/event*"
        # The value is "-1.0" <= x <= "1.0"
        Option "AccelSpeed" "0.9"
EndSection

evdev driver based config

It seems that more detailed setting is possible than libinput device’s one.

$ cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/50-trackpoint.conf 
# Trackpoint
# https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/TrackPoint
# https://askubuntu.com/questions/948373/change-cursor-speed-in-libinput
#
# For general setting items.
# $ man 5 xorg.conf
#
# Check with `xinput` to change the setting at realtime.
# $ man 1 xinput
# Check the trackpoint id number.
# $ xinput list
# $ xinput list 14
# $ xinput --list-props 14
#
# For evdev driver based setting.
# $ man 4 evdev
# To change the setting at realtime.
# $ xinput --list-props 14
# $ xinput set-prop 14 "Device Accel Profile" 4
# $ xinput set-prop 14 "Device Accel Constant Deceleration" 0.75
# $ xinput set-prop 14 "Device Accel Velocity Scaling" 3
Section "InputClass"
        Identifier "evdev trackpoint"
        Driver "evdev"
        # Set the product name printed in `xinput list`.
        MatchProduct "TPPS/2 Elan TrackPoint"
        MatchDevicePath "/dev/input/event*"
        # See `man 5 xorg.conf`.
        # 4: simple
        Option "AccelerationProfile" "4"
        # A value between 0 and 1 will speed up the pointer.
        Option "ConstantDeceleration" "0.75"
        Option "VelocityScale" "3"
EndSection

[tassadarforaiur]

For the trackpoint feeling hard to move, in addition to making sure your sensitivity settings are right, its important to remember that the ‘cats tongue’ rubber pad on the trackpoint is a consumable item. As it wears down, it does friction less effectively, and you have to press harder to avoid slipping. I bought my replacements Lenovo direct, and I probably replace them every 4-6 months to keep it a good experience.

[junaruga]

@tassadarforaiur

For the trackpoint feeling hard to move, in addition to making sure your sensitivity settings are right, its important to remember that the ‘cats tongue’ rubber pad on the trackpoint is a consumable item.

Thanks for the info. Now I have improved my trackpoint setting (X window level) on Linux on my Thinkpad by using the “evdev” driver based config that maybe enables a more detailed config. I added it to my above comment. Maybe the Option "VelocityScale" "3" item in the config is about sensitivity.

[junaruga]

I found a compact keyboard with trackpoint. This might be interesting to use with a laptop. Yoda II | TEX Electronics , and the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard Trackpoint module.

[njsf]

junaruga:

I found a compact keyboard with trackpoint. This might be interesting to use with a laptop. Yoda II | TEX Electronics , and the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard Trackpoint module .

I own the more faithful to ThinkPad TeX Shinobi and I can say after a year it is a delight to type in.

[Robert_Mohlmann]

Same as @rossic and @Walt_Leipold and @ Firestar

Was ready to order, but I’m a left handed gamer. I use the arrow keys for movement in all the games I play. Those half height imitation “keys” would get me killed real quick.

Yes, I could take a real keyboard along with me when I travel, but that kind of defeats the purpose of taking a laptop for portability, doesn’t it?

[robin]

@nrp

The nub is probably not possible mechanically on this one (it’s amazing how tightly everything needs to be packed to make a thin, high performance laptop work), but tbd on trackpad buttons!

TrackPoint modules are very small nowadays, though! I have a detached Thinkpad x260 keyboard next to me – one of the “chiclet” Thinkpad keyboards – and (1) the nub is either the same height as, or imperceptibly taller than them, the surrounding keys, which appear to rise about a millimeter out of the keyboard base, and (2) there’s a ~0.5mm by ~0.5mm module underneath the keyboard, presumably with sensors and electronics inside, which is about a millimeter tall and uses a ribbon connector. Is there really that little extra space inside the Framework beneath the QWERTY G/H/B keys? (I’d certainly believe either answer given the height of the laptop…) Or perhaps a potential problem would be the nub coming into contact with the screen when the laptop’s closed, but that seems less likely given the height of the nub and the apparent key height on the Framework.

I’m not sure it could be a purely DIY project even if TrackPoint support is theoretically possible given the physical constraints of the laptop design, given that:

• there would need to be a small hole/mounting point near in the center of the keyboard PCB, not to mention…
• a hole in the grid above it, which would probably need to be a inverted-T-shaped gap around the TrackPoint and surrounding buttons (or in any case, a more complicated grid than the current one);
• three keys would need to be shaped differently to make room for the nub; and
• in general, it doesn’t look like it would be easy to significantly modify the keyboard by oneself…

But it seems plausible to me that the Framework could theoretically support TrackPoint someday, unless there’s really not even a millimeter to spare internally below the keyboard and no good way to work around it in the future. (I’d be happy to make more precise measurements if it’d be helpful, but I imagine the Framework engineers would just order a ThinkPad keyboard themselves if it were being seriously considered, and surely TrackPoint modules have either remained the same or maybe shrunk a bit since my ~5-year-old x260 was new.)

And it’s great to hear that there might be an option for physical trackpad buttons in the future! That would make the trackpad much more usable for me even without TrackPoint. (Though if TrackPoint is ever a possibility, it would be nice if it had the buttons at the top, or were vertically “reversible”, or had two sets of buttons, etc. – personally I prefer having trackpad buttons at the top with or without TrackPoint, though that might just be because I’m used to Thinkpads )

[tassadarforaiur]

I know it absolutely sucks vs a proper trackpoint, but would anyone ever even consider using a blackberry style optical trackpad paired with trackpoint mouse buttons, with the track pad nestled between g h and b? might be a workaround for the height issue.

[IndependentGeorge]

I’m not an engineer, so please feel free to correct me, but it seems to me that if thickness is the main sticking point of a trackpad keyboard, wouldn’t the answer be a slightly modified hinge kit that added an extra 1-2 mm of space when closed? That would let you keep the same lower chassis (with all the components) while adding a slightly thicker keyboard & input cover.

[strobe_grill]

@tassadarforaiur

I know it absolutely sucks vs a proper trackpoint, but would anyone ever even consider using a blackberry style optical trackpad paired with trackpoint mouse buttons, with the track pad nestled between g h and b? might be a workaround for the height issue.

That’s a thought, but the challenge would probably be finding an off-the shelf module like that.