I don’t know; it the keyboard that came with the X230 when I bought that computer (and I bought it - the laptop - second-hand). Still, I did sand the X230’s touchpad. (Really!)
The classic keyboard looks nice but the modification is way too much work for me.
I know this is somewhat old, but nobody said it: Try to please everyone, satisfy no one, or something like that the saying goes. Writing as a potential future migrant, but for the time being still firmly in Thinkpadland. And by that I mean T520 and nothing later. Meaning I miss out on everything USB-C, and getting replacement keyboards is getting harder every year.
As someone whose employer sells them but also offers other IT services, I have had one issued as a test bed at some point. Long story short: I ended up using SSH because I had no external keyboard. My bar is is the T520 and earlier, I refuse to lower it, and Framework Laptops as they are sold today do not meet it. Please do not get it wrong, I am not saying that any competitor is any better. There is lots of great stuff. But if either of those three, keyboard (and its surroundings), display or battery are not satisfying, then it is not truly a mobile device, and I could just build something out of the abundance of ATX and PCIE components we have had for decades, including lots of second hand parts.
For details about my woes about the keyboard, its surroundings, and what I mean by “surroundings”, I have written already before I knew the CAD files are on github:
I plan do modify the problematic parts at some point, but for the moment, against better judgement it seems, I just keep watching and hoping they release something that reduces the need for redesign. I mean, kudos for making that possible at all by going open source, and using formats for which there is free software. Before learning about that, I had already given up. But if a competitor comes along that gives me what I want, I will go the lazy route.
For the keyboard specifically, to answer the question of this topic, I hate its layout, and I have also seen some flex at the sides. There is an opportunity, though: while Thinkpads up to about 2010 were the most faithful (to my knowledge) to the AT standard, they still had to accept some compromises. So there is some friction in switching between laptop and desktop keyboards. If I design my own, I might just as well design some receptacle for desktop use and install exact copies in it and in the laptop. Then I could get used to something other than the AT standard, e.g. I like the idea of ortholinearity. If one keyboard dies, I could even transplant it between the two.
I find it funny that you sacrifice everything for the keyboard. If the choice is between a computer and a keyboard, most people will probably choose the former, you can do things with a bad keyboard, but can’t with a bad computer. 
(unless you just need it as a terminal client)
Essentially if someone doesn’t need a decent computer then Framework or any other new computer isn’t for them so it’s not worth comparing. I now wish I stayed with my Thinkpad and saved the money, but I donated it to a family member that needed a good computer and didn’t have the financial means and I use my framework, so eh… all in all a better outcome for me.
But yea don’t choose framework for the keyboard, choose it because you need a new computer and with the modularity chances are you’re better off than the rest. I’m honestly impressed with the ecosystem, it’s better than I hoped. If the chassis ever becomes obsolete, it already served so many generations so it’s all good in my books. I wish all notebooks would be upgradeable 5+ generations, swappable hinges, screens, webcams etc.
Well, I use it a bit more heavily than that, but I rarely break the 4GB mark in RAM usage, which is what I had just until a few months ago. When I went into swap, that was usually some big updates via Git together with the main consumer, Firefox. But I do indeed do a lot via command line, mainly to limit clutter of open windows by consolidating most of it into a few terminals. So from that perspective, I do not feel I was sacrificing anything, and my current laptop has 16GB. Neither am I missing modern connectivity for now, but I know this will change. In contrast, apart from the keyboard layout, the form factor is a source of physical discomfort. I am not putting up with that for hours a day. That would be a sacrifice I would literally feel.
If I really need performance, I still have a desktop, with much more modularity than any laptop could ever have. Also over a decade old by now and no USB-C, but PCIE could bridge that gap.
Sorry, I guess I don’t get why you are lurking on the Framework community forum then. I mean if your principles wont let you budge, then what is the point?
Thinkpads themselves have abadoned your standard. For you, as I imagine you need a laptop, and when your laptop breaks, you’ll be faced with an impossible choice due to your standards. You should buy a good desktop keyboard that you really like. Make sure it is portable, and then you have just fixed the biggest issue with your standard. You have made teh keyboard an external condition and one fully under your control.
I can recommend the ZSA Moonlander as a possible candidate for this.
That said, I still think the Framework keyboard’s functionality is really good. That is not a comment of layout or keys available. (which I don’t have any real problem with)
Exactly. The good ones stopped being commercially available sometime last decade. This is why I keep an eye on possible alternatives.
While I mostly criticize the points that ruin the laptops for me, and they have a few downsides I would be willing to accept, there is also a lot of positives, like Linux support, CPU vendor options, the whole expansion card thing is revolutionary for a laptop (and next to meaningless for a desktop), privacy switches, also while I cannot speak that well to the quality of the display, I have only used in indoors and I suck at judging how well the picture quality is, I like how well it fills the available space. There are also a few points in the category “great idea, not so great execution”, like the spacers in front of the keyboard. They bend rather easily, and have some wiggle room, so it is possible to feel the edges between them, and others have even reported having hair being stuck in the gap. This is very much an idea that I would like to see improved, not abandoned.
All this is very enticing. I know my way around OpenSCAD, but I am not an engineer, so I expect a lot of frustrating surprises in getting a draft built. So I would very much prefer the professionals do it, rather than myself. The result would most likely be better and cheaper. This is what I am lobbying for. Eventually I need to get it done, otherwise … the thought of giving up laptops altogether has indeed crossed my mind recently, but it is not an option in the short term, I use it too much when not at home. When I (and I am willing to bet it will be me) get around it, I will post in the creators forum, because I am sure I will very much need the feedback from those with actual experience.
There is also the possibility that I develop a use case which involves graphics, then the Framework 12 becomes an option because I think of it not as a laptop, but as a tablet that can run my favorite distro and all the software I need. And then there is
which begins with the claim that Framework want to offer “all of consumer electronics” eventually. Who knows what comes out of that. Printers were suggested there, I gave up on those years ago because of the high ratio of effort to benefit, and I also learned the hard way about DRM in cartridges. A Framework printer is something I would seriously consider for myself and definitely would recommend to anyone. Anything without a keyboard, if I have use for it, is worth a look.
I hope that answers why I am still around. I am not hating on Framework, I am just frustrated.
If they built cars, it is kind of like they had a sedan with all the Framework features and an exceptional Cw and instead of adding a station wagon based on it to their lineup, they concentrate their engineering efforts into building the most powerful engine into the smallest cabrio possible that is more monolithic than most of its competition and call it a desktop. If there were more comparable companies, maybe one of them would even offer some sort of keyboard kit.
Thank you for your recommendation, I am always interested in innovative HID devices, and ZSA looks like they support values similar to Framework. Too deep of a rabbit hole for now, but I saved the link for later.
I’m a longtime Thinkpad user and a former certified Thinkpad repair person.
I prefer even today’s Thinkpad keyboards to the FW13’s keyboard.
It is very noticeably better when I pick up one of my end-user’s Thinkpads and use it when I am used to using my FW13 as a daily driver.
And today’s Thinkpad keyboards are nowhere near as good as the Lexmark-designed ones of yesteryear.
That said, FW13’s keyboard is on par with Macbook Pros and better than Dell XPS.
This is not a knock on FW13 but really praise for Thinkpads’ keyboards.
Realistically you’ll need to build your own, using either a t520 replacement keyboard or a custom mechanical one. Framework probably has the most suitable components to to do something like that.
The probability of something with a keyboard like that showing up a s a product on the commercial market is pretty low at this point imo.
Thank you for the video. You are absolutely right about the suitability of the Framework components. As far as I can tell, there are no real alternatives around. I can also appreciate that the main board has a simple rectangular shape. I have also seen the project of a track point as an expansion card, which is highly interesting since I could plug that to the side rather than have it in the center, and it keeps complexity out of the keyboard.
I thought the whole point of the trackpoint was not having to move the hands a way from the keyboard, having that on the side would kinda defeat that no?
Well, there is a huge difference between grabbing a mouse that is wherever it is where I left it, and moving my hand to the side where I can find the device blindly. But I just realized that for comfort, I need extend the palm rest to the side, but when I use a real mouse, I might want to stow it. Or maybe there will be a gap in the keyboard, who needs capslock anyway. I will have to think about that.
Yes, one point is indeed the proximity to the keyboard, even to the point where I often use it when I have a normal mouse available. I can also make some pointer movements with it that I could never replicate on the mouse. The mouse is generally faster and somewhat easier to hit a specific point, but drawing lines with it is quite jittery. I also found that graphic tablet (the ones without a screen) do not work out for me. So the trackpoint has a point for me beyond just being reachable without leaving the keyboard.
My motor skills are not that great, I could never hope to type blindly, not completely anyway. And I hit the keys not always precisely in the middle, so very occasionally when trying to type G, H or B, the rubber cap intercepts that hit. If this is why some people hate it, I can understand, but I still very much prefer having it where it is than not having it at all, or having it stuck at the right side. That said, I like the idea of moving it away from in between the keys. And while it is equally reachable from either side, there is nothing wrong with having one at either side. The problem with the expansion card that I see is for it to know at which side it is plugged in, or I might find my cursor’s movement inverted.
Fair enough, I am usually passively aware where my mouse is and don’t have to look for it but I realize that may not be everyone.
That’s the spirit, screw capslock gang.
I mean if you are building a custom board, having it be somewhere that is not within the keys makes live a lot easier so if you actually prefere that even better. If you are repurposing an existing keyboard you either live with where it is or just disable or not wire it up and put an external one somewhere else.
Worst case you could just add a dip switch or something to quickly change orientation.
Yeah, it was just meant as a note of “I have it on the radar”, not as “Oh god, how do I solve this?”
The conversations I was having lately have brought up some old ideas of mine which I last touched in 2017. Back then, I was hoping for some ARM board with a bunch of ExpressCard connectors, or something that could hold some adapter for those. I either had not heard of USB-C, or not thought much about it, and did not think of USB as a good replacement for ExpressCard. And I thought I would have to make the case physically myself. So many problems, I did not pursue it any further. With all the input of the last few days, including browsing the shop to get a picture of which components can be bought separately, and conversations like this one, I think I will also have a look at my old notes. More and more, rather than trying to keep as many parts as possible, I am leaning towards making my own case from scratch, copy in parts which interface with off the shelf components, and keep it simple otherwise. Which makes me reconsider which components to even use, because I could chose from different models. A Frankenwork, if you will.
Anyway, if and when I come up with something, I will certainly ask for feedback. There is no telling when that will be, though, things like that have a lot of inertia, at least for me. It usually takes a lot of time to get started, and when it does, it takes a toll on almost everything else. And there are other projects competing for that attention as well.