Want Framework, buying ThinkPad instead 🙁

[new23d]

Have been meaning to buy a Framework for some time now. But when it came to it, it would have to be a ThinkPad P14s Gen 5 Intel at this time for the following reasons. I hope the product can evolve to cater to some of these aspects. These are not in any particular order of importance.

1. No Kensington lock port. I’ve raised this in the forum before - and it’s not about data loss/theft, but about the disruption to work/life for those few days/weeks. And I know it’s only a useless deterrent for a committed thief, but it deters the opportunistic ones which is almost always the case.

2. No Home/End keys. (See several threads on this linked to in a reply.)

3. Sizes of arrow keys.

4. Numerous reports of sporadic keys/USB not working, etc which needs reseating of components. Saw this with a fellow co-worker the other day. I think the team need to rethink the connectors. (I wonder how many times has this occurred in the real world and not written about here in this forum!)

5.a. Screen real estate vs dot pitch. The FW 13.5" with the 2256*1504px screen comes in at 0.1265mm dot pitch. The ThinkPad I have in mind has a 14.5" with 2560*1600px coming in at 0.122mm dot pitch. So, these are comparable but the TP will have more real estate.

5.b. The FW 13.5" with 2880*1920px comes in at 0.0991mm dot pitch - making the objects/font size too miniscule. If I were to apply 2x zoom to it, that would reduce the effective vertical resolution to 960px, which isn’t enough real estate for my use. FHD TPs have 1200px vertical (alternate screen, won’t need scaling).

6. The TP has a built-in Ethernet port. Good to have - not a deal breaker. With the FW, it would be sticking out when needed.

(The 14.5" TP with 2560*1600px is an Intel-only variant, otherwise am a die-hard AMD fan.)

And yes, I have considered Framework 16 too but it’s too big and bulky for me at this time.

While am at it, I wanted a Framework for its ability to hot-swap ports and plug whatever on either side. Not for most other reasons, tbh. TP Gen 5s have two USB C on one side, and one of them will be taken up just for charging. They removed the dedicated power port.

[Steve_Fishman]

It’s not for you. Move on.

[BigT]

Different things will be important to different folks. The FW machines aren’t going to work for everyone. It’s interesting to hear the reasons why. Maybe FW will take those things into consideration moving forward.

As for reports of issues with Keys and USB stuff, I can’t say how well FW fairs against other brands, statistically, when it comes to issues like that. But at my company, we use Dell and the number of random computer hardware and software issues is staggering. Intermittent or entirely dead keyboards, bluescreen issues, touchscreen issues, driver issues, dead drives, dead docks, USB port issues, etc., etc. It probably seems worse because I’m in a position to hear about many of the issues. But I just know that random hardware issues aren’t exclusive to Framework.

This forum ends up being a bit of a gathering place for people looking for help with issues. I’m sure you are correct that there are a lot of people out there with issues who don’t report it here. But I’m also confident there are also people with no issues that never report in here to say they have no issues. Anecdotally, I have two FW 13 laptops. An early batch, 11th gen. I also have a batch 8 AMD. No problems with either one…so far.

I also have a Thinkpad just a little older than my 11th gen FW 13. As of a year ago, the batteries (there are actually two, one built-in and one hot-swappable) are both dead and will no longer charge. The laptop works when connected to power, but the batteries both show errors and won’t charge. The only replacements available are expensive, generic options with mixed reviews.

Obviously, that doesn’t mean a FW machine will work for you. Everyone has different needs and wants. Just thought I’d add my $0.02

[JT_Taylor]

I like the new thinkpad except for the intel part. Intel is trash. But anyways the framework is just a different product. I love being able to upgrade mine and take it apart easily. Thinkpads are nice (I use one for work) but it just isn’t a framework.

[ryanpetris]

I agree the Framework isn’t for everyone, but if there were nits to pick these are pretty small nits IMO.

@new23d

No Kensington lock port. I’ve raised this in the forum before - and it’s not about data loss/theft, but about the disruption to work/life for those few days/weeks. And I know it’s only a useless deterrent for a committed thief, but it deters the opportunistic ones which is almost always the case.

fair

@new23d

No Home/End keys.

FN+Up/Down; you’ll get used to it.

@new23d

Sizes of arrow keys.

I’m not sure what the complaint is here when comparing to Thinkpads; they have small arrow keys here.

@new23d

Numerous reports of sporadic keys/USB not working, etc which needs reseating of components. Saw this with a fellow co-worker the other day. I think the team need to rethink the connectors. (I wonder how many times has this occurred in the real world and not written about here in this forum!)

I personally haven’t had a problem with anything USB not working, and in fact for Thunderbolt stuff specifically I’ve had zero problems whereas other laptops and mini pc’s, especially AMD ones, have various issues.

@new23d

5.b. The FW 13.5" with 2880*1920px comes in at 0.0991mm dot pitch - making the objects/font size too miniscule. If I were to apply 2x zoom to it, that would reduce the effective vertical resolution to 960px, which isn’t enough real estate for my use. FHD TPs have 1200px vertical.

If you had a blind test where the screen was masked off so you couldn’t figure out what the screen ratio is, I highly doubt you’d be able to tell the difference.

@new23d

5.b. The FW 13.5" with 2880*1920px comes in at 0.0991mm dot pitch - making the objects/font size too miniscule. If I were to apply 2x zoom to it, that would reduce the effective vertical resolution to 960px, which isn’t enough real estate for my use. FHD TPs have 1200px vertical.

You’re comparing apples and oranges here; you use the 2560x1600 thinkpad screen for the previous comparison but the 1920x1200 screen for this comparison. Which one do you actually want? You can’t have both on the ThinkPad, but you could in theory buy both for the framework and swap them out.

Sounds like you just want a 16:10 screen rather than 3:2, which is fine, but just say that.

@new23d

The TP has a built-in Ethernet port. Good to have - not a deal breaker. With the FW, it would be sticking out when needed.

I’ve found that having an ethernet port isn’t very useful anymore really; like you said it’s nice to have but not really practical anymore. If you’re going somewhere you normally wouldn’t use your computer, you’re likely going to be using wifi even if it is an office building. If you’re in a place where you’re normally using your laptop, you’re going to quickly want a thunderbolt or usb-c dock, which is going to have an ethernet port.

Like others have said, the Framework isn’t for everyone. I buy them because I know that if something breaks I’m going to be able to get replacement parts quickly and cheaply, even if the whole machine costs more. Additionally, I can upgrade parts as I want without having to buy a whole new computer.

For instance, I’ve upgraded from 12th Gen Intel to 13th Gen to the AMD series and soon to have an Intel Core Ultra motherboard. I’ve recently replaced my keyboard(s) with the newly released “International Linux” keyboards which remove the windows logo. I’ve upgraded the original hinges from 3kg to 3.5kg. I’m about to get a few of the new screens in to replace the matte screens which replaced the glossy screens and I’m probably going to finally upgrade my 55wh batters to the 61wh variants. Each one of those steps would have been a whole new computer with any other brand.

Anyway, good luck on your ThinkPad adventures. When it breaks, we’ll be here waiting for you.

[new23d]

Thanks for your detailed answer. I agree with all your points - and it’s the sum of these that’s swayed my choice this time. And yes, I just have to let Lenovo let me down one more time (they have in the past) and I’ll be back!

For clarity, on the use of Fn for Home and End keys, I use them in a sequence already and depressing another key is impractical. I’ve attached a list of threads by other people who’d like to see these dedicated keys too.

The Up and Down arrow keys are smaller than the Left and Right keys. On TPs, they are similarly sized and larger - easily depressible by my fingers anyway. Some of the threads I’ve linked to below also talk about that.

I witnessed the USB and keyboard woes myself, and there are too many threads here reporting on that too. A random example is this one. I’m gathering a pattern here which is if the FW laptop is taken out and about town, these things happen. If it’s left on a desk, then it’s fairly stable.

The 1200px vertical was an alternate example where scaling wouldn’t have to be used. The reason why such a large resolution (1920px vertical) in the new FW13 screen made certain Linux users happy was that a flat 2x zoom could be applied. And I don’t necessarily care about the aspect ratio, but do care about being able to read and still have sufficient real estate (pixels) to do all my work. The FW16 has it well balanced though!

My use of an Ethernet port is that I do deal with a lot of networking equipment and sometimes need dual routes out of the machine (one going to management of the router, for example.) Again, I can easily live without a fully flush port but it’s an interesting observation to make that even FW16 couldn’t squeeze one in.

Home & End key discussions:

Keyboard arrow keys

Half-height arrow keys are a dealbreaker for me and a number of other people. Usable page-up/page-down keys are also important to me. Page navigation, folks. I was ready to click “buy now” until I noticed the keyboard layout.

Full arrow keys on 16 inch keyboard

Hello lovely people I look for a Framework laptop since quite some while, and the new 16 inch version does look amazing Still, looking at the keyboard, it pains me to see that you went with the half-sized arrow keys. Thats a deal breaker, and not only for me: Keyboard arrow keys I understand that you have good reasons for it, and that you cant easily add the option for a fully customized keyboard. Two options, that I can see: Full sized arrow keys by default Full sized arrow keys on a comm…

A "numpad" module for full arrow keys

Am I alone in wanting a keyboard module, that also takes up the numpad slot, with full sized arrow keys? It could work as a keyboard without any arrow keys, pg up/down, etc and a “numpad” module with these keys. Do you think this would be available on release, or possibly a fast follow up? I’m on tenterhooks for the keyboard deep dive, but worry this may be the factor that makes me go elsewhere, or start to learn about 3d printing.

FN key, Arrow keys, Sales to Europe, Full Ubuntu support

Little story time … =) I know i cant get one yet, but got excited a little when i saw this on LTT. Im a web dev on desktop who would like to get used to a notbook again, but whenever i searched for one i dropped the idea just because: the damn FN key. I am a keyboard user - so mouse clicky clicky only if no way around. So … I would REALLY like to be able to get a keyboard without “that ****** key” =) Im so used to standard keyboard - no FN key, large enter key, usual arrow key placement, H…

Panel for full size arrow keys / insert / delete etc

I (and probably many others) don’t have much use for a numpad module, but would love a module that houses the keys usually found between the numpad and regular keys on full size keyboards. That is, the area housing the full sized arrow keys, insert, delete and such. Very useful both for editing documents, gaming, development and similar. PS! Would also prefer if the Windows / Super key was replaced by for example the framework logo or similar, not needing separate keyboards for linux vs windows…

What happened to the man who invented these arrow keys?

Did he have a difficult upbringing? Is there a way to get a keyboard with regular arrows? Some way to shrink that big SHIFT button? [image]

Keyboard Inverted T arrow layout

I absolutely hate the arrow keyboard layout with all the keys in the same row. It’s not confortable. The “half-height” keys are also not good. I would LOVE to have a keyboard with a full size inverted T arrow layout for the 15 inch laptop. Specifically for the LATIN AMERICAN Spanish layout. Pleaaase. Thanks RZ

Full size for Up/Down cursor keys (Laptop 13)

I’m not entirely certain what the suggestion is here. Making the right shift key shorter would seem to have only disadvantages: The shift key would be unlike any other key on the keyboard, except, I suppose the far less frequently used function keys? But because one’s fingers need to bend down to hit shift—I usually press shift essentially with part of my fingernail—it is harder to hit precisely than function keys, where one’s fingers extend upward. It would certainly be a different height …

Better keyboard layout

I came to post a thread asking for keyboard layout with full size arrow keys too! My favourite layout has full height arrow keys, and a column of home, end, page up, page down on the right edge of the keyboard, rather like that dodgy amazon laptop linked. No one uses the right shift key (there’s even memes about it), feel free to tuck a 1x1 shift left or right of the ‘up’ key. The Lenovo Yoga 700 14’ (which was the last laptop I purchased) is another good example. [image] Or the Asus EeePC …

[ryanpetris]

@new23d

For clarity, on the use of Fn for Home and End keys, I use them in a sequence already and depressing another key is impractical. I’ve attached a list of threads by other people who’d like to see these dedicated keys too.

I guess I’ve gotten used to using fn + up/down/left/right for page up/down and home/end as that’s the way a lot of laptops do it. That said, there’s only so much room for the keyboard on the 13 inch, and without a weird notch on the right side like on the thinkpads, or even worse a shortened shift key to make room for a full size up arrow, it’s just not going to fit. For the 16 inch, there is the option of reprogramming the macropad to do whatever you want, and technically the numpad would solve the dedicated arrow and page up/down key problem.

@new23d

I witnessed the USB and keyboard woes myself, and there are too many threads here reporting on that too. A random example is this one. I’m gathering a pattern here which is if the FW laptop is taken out and about town, these things happen. If it’s left on a desk, then it’s fairly stable.

I’m certain that other manufacturers also have a certain frequency of failures, you just never really hear about them becuase they don’t have vocal communities like Framework does. The good thing about framework is that if you do have keyboard issues, if it’s under warranty then Framework will just ship you a new keyboard without you having to send your machine in for repairs. Or, if it’s not under warranty, you can just buy a new keyboard for relatively cheap without having to resort to eBay.

@new23d

The 1200px vertical was an alternate example where scaling wouldn’t have to be used. The reason why such a large resolution (1920px vertical) in the new FW13 screen made certain Linux users happy was that a flat 2x zoom could be applied. And I don’t necessarily care about the aspect ratio, but do care about being able to read and still have sufficient real estate (pixels) to do all my work. The FW16 has it well balanced though!

Well, I’m a Linux user and personally the 2256x1504 screen is/was the perfect resolution. I run them without scaling and it’s perfect. The only reason why I ordered the new displays is the 120hz screens, and I’ll probably end up running them at 125% or maybe 150% since I’ll already be scaling now. Would be nice if they made 120Hz screens at the original resolution. I’m not a fan of the rounded corners, either, but realistically I use GNOME so I’m not going to be missing anything.

@new23d

My use of an Ethernet port is that I do deal with a lot of networking equipment and sometimes need dual routes out of the machine (one going to management of the router, for example.) Again, I can easily live without a fully flush port but it’s an interesting observation to make that even FW16 couldn’t squeeze one in.

The framework 16 couldn’t “squeeze one in” for the same reason why they didn’t squeeze in the headphone port – they gave you 6 ports that you can do whatever you want with, including adding those headphone or ethernet ports in. If you look at many other laptops today, I doubt you have more than 6 ports in total, and therefore something missing by default on the Framework is kind of a moot point.

The way the ethernet port sticks out though could be better though as you mentioned. I’d be happy to have one of those flip-open ports you find on other thin and light laptops with ethernet ports.

[Vortec07]

Why can I only “heart” this one time? Gah!