What batch am I? (Is it even relevant anymore?)

[Matt_Falcon]

@Fraoch

Hey, no need to get nasty here.

Can you see how frustrating this thread has been up to this point with unhelpful replies? The most helpful reply has been yours - but that was below this unwarranted “be nice” dig at me. Could’ve at least contributed that along with chastising me for reacting to the useless blame-the-user responses I’ve had so far.

So, if it’s all the same, why, when I talk about issues with my laptop related to power management or the lack of a Tempo audio driver, do I get a look like I’m a Martian? I’ve been looking for some reason to explain why what I’m typing on, in front of me, is somehow different than what you’re (most likely) typing on, in front of you, bearing all the same visual similarities.

It’d’ve been wise to at least put some kind of revision info along with the batches of the past, so people weren’t so tied to identifying revisions by batches. Maybe the Tempo audio driver thing is by design but people just don’t know… and maybe the power management stuff (almost entirely empty Windows power profile settings - e.g. entirely no “processor power management” settings whatsoever) is some esoteric issue related to production programming?

I would love to ask these things, instead, in the thread relevant to my computer’s revision, but alas, we are now here.

Maybe the correct way forward is a thread for “The Batchless Guild”.

[Monster_user]

@Matt_Falcon, have you checked to see what the motherboard model number is under MSINFO32?

Windows + R → “msinfo32.exe” → System Summary → Baseboard Product

Linux has ‘dmidecode’ which lists a SKU Number and Family, but I am not sure if either is a 1:1.

On Linux I am looking at a FRANBMCP## number, mine being 0B, and the serial number having a FRANBMCP## prefix but with AB instead of 0B.

I have not yet researched these, but if yours are different then it may help?

@Matt_Falcon

and no CPU power options at all except The Slider

Are you needing support with the items you mentioned in the top of the thread?

Were you able to adjust the Hibernation settings? What level of the power options have you tried? Adjusting the Slider? Power under the Settings app? Classic Control Panel Power Options? Windows Mobility Center? PowerCFG from PowerShell?

[Matt_Falcon]

@Monster_user

have you checked to see what the motherboard model number is under MSINFO32?

Windows + R → “msinfo32.exe” → System Summary → Baseboard Product

I’ve got FRANBMCP0B as well there.

@Monster_user

Are you needing support with the items you mentioned in the top of the thread?

Well, kinda, but not really. It’s just something I’ve lumped in with “annoyances of so-called ‘modern’ laptops” that includes things like button-less touchpads (I stuck a strip of VHB tape that blocks touch and emulates a button - works pretty well but the touchpad still slide-clicks like jank far more than it should), the lack of real sleep (“modern standby”), WiFi issues after waking, aaaand these little odd ones I can’t seem to find any consolation with.

@Monster_user

Were you able to adjust the Hibernation settings?

Of course - I was just noting that the default option was set to 20 minutes, which struck me as insanely aggressive. Something in firmware seems to have told it to do that, but when I say that, I don’t see any agreement - it’s like I’m the only one with a computer that did that.

@Monster_user

Adjusting the Slider?

This is the only option I have - and the power slider is independent of Windows’ classic controls. However, this slider doesn’t work as well as needed, sometimes, in rare occasions when I need LESS performance to conserve battery. In those cases, I would normally go to “Processor Power Management” and tweak things there.

That’s it, that’s the entire page. A bit unusual, no? It was here that I saw the default setting for hibernate was 20 minutes (Sleep->Hibernate after->On battery = 20 minutes). Of course, I set that to never. Thanks to the drain of Modern Standby, I use hibernate (Win+R, shutdown -h) when I know I’m not going to use the computer for several hours (e.g. end of the day) or need to conserve the last few percent (at 20%, say).

@Monster_user

Power under the Settings app? Classic Control Panel Power Options? Windows Mobility Center? PowerCFG from PowerShell?

Settings app power options page always has been useless Mobility Center is a Win7 thing. powercfg is a cmd utility (screw PowerShell, lol) that I only break-out when I get REALLY desperate trying to change/fix something.

[Monster_user]

2022 Tempo audio Framework for a designation?

I am not sure when they switched to the Tempo chip. I’m using a Batch 5 which Linux lists as using an Intel PCH HD Audio device, so I would not be able to pull the VEN or PID from device manager for the Tempo device.

(Edit 4/1/2022): Rebooted into Windows, and my Framework has VEN_111D&DEV_7695.
The driver utility detects Tempo audio. No sign of a Realtek device.
VEN8086&DEV_2812 is shown as not attached.

@Matt_Falcon

obility Center is a Win7 thing

Windows + R → mblctr

A Windows 7 thing sure, but it is still around in Windows 11.

@Matt_Falcon

That’s it, that’s the entire page. A bit unusual, no?

Not really, Microsoft has been shrinking that page down with every subsequent release on my Surface Pro 4. I have been forced to switch to PowerCFG in order to mitigate flickergate as Microsoft has also dropped a lot of the registry keys for that page as well.

@Matt_Falcon

I was just noting that the default option was set to 20 minutes…
…it’s like I’m the only one with a computer that did that.

I’ll have to load Windows 11 on my spare drive again and see what it shows. In my research I came across something that indicates the sleep modes are chained together, and that the hibernate timer might not be 20 minutes from idle, but 20 minutes from modern standby or so, and thus necessitating a more aggressive setting.

[Matt_Falcon]

@Monster_user

Microsoft has been shrinking that page down with every subsequent release on my Surface Pro 4.

Oh, but no, this isn’t to do with the page itself - you can use the same install media, and install it on two different computers, and get each of those results. These are, actually, using the same version of Windows. That’s where I say - hell, try it! When you deal with many different computer models, these sorts of things start to really jump out at you. Something in/about the computer is making Windows choose not to show those options. Probably the same suite of stuff that comprises modern standby

@Monster_user

Windows 11

Just not with Windows 11 ewww. No, Windows 10 at least until MS walks back the “it’s broken but yolo ship it” style of Windows 11…

[Matt_Falcon]

@RandomUser

I wonder if that default came from Windows…difference / refinement between 21H1 (mine and some other people’s as we got our laptops back in late Q3 or Q4 2021) and 21H2 (you, in 2022)?

Maybe. My first thought is that Windows appears to pull some default values from system firmware somehow. I don’t know the mechanism (most likely ACPI, which is made for that purpose), but in particular note, over history it seems every laptop model has had its own Goldilocks settings for “reserve battery level” and “critical battery level” (low battery is almost always 20%). Low at 10%, critical at 5%… low at 7%, critical at 3%, low at 5% and critical at 1%? All up to the manufacturer.

Thus, why I immediately jumped to concluding that system firmware also put the default value for hibernate in there - though it’s increasingly likely that’s just one of many “adaptations” Windows makes when it sees that the system is “modern standby” capable (i.e. removing settings, abstracting stuff, making things more “modern” which is to say “you don’t have any control anymore”). So, that could just be a side effect of Modern Standby.

But counter to that hypothesis, others report having “Processor Power Management” options available, as well as giving me a look of weirdness when I say “hibernate was set to 20 minutes”. Then again, the same folks in the same breath also say “hibernate hasn’t been a thing since like 2010”, to which I can only laugh and no longer be sure if they even know what’s going on

I guess it is, thus, an open question as to whether it’s one of many settings Windows silently “gives to you” during Setup if it detects a “modern computer” (god I feel a little sick calling it modern - like this is just the new normal), and that setting is the same for any computer it detects Modern Standby support for, vs. legacy computers (like my 2013 Dell Latitude E7440 which has been in actual “suspend-to-RAM” with power LED pulsing, for 4 straight days now and only went from 55% battery to 40% battery - tell me that needed improvement?).

Oof, I’m ranty. So many things about computers past that I just wish were improved, but instead, … we got clickpads and Modern Standby (idling and hibernate in a trenchcoat).

(you can tell I love the Framework’s keyboard, though. I’ll reserve my one minor gripe and just say it’s a pure win )

[lbkNhubert]

@Matt_Falcon - replying here so as not to continue to hijack the batch 10 thread - @moderators, is it possible to move the relevant posts from that thread (here: Batch 10 Guild - #19 by Matt_Falcon) into this one?

Batch 1 i7-1165G7 Windows 10:

Batch 6 i5-1135G7 Windows 11:

[Matt_Falcon]

Poking my head in here because I am DEEPLY frustrated with the useless responses I’m getting in my other thread…

Batch numbers have been obsolete (for US shipments at least) since before this thread (regarding a US shipment) was even started. How are any of you (US users) even seeing anything regarding a batch number? There simply IS no batch number shown anywhere on any of my correspondence with Framework, nowhere on the site, nowhere except the forum. It’s like I bought it from an entirely different company (thought it was this very website).

(I already have my laptop - but my concern is with finding community in other people with the same revision… mine was shipped first week of Feb 2022 and used it daily ever since)

It’s really frustrating being “batch-homeless” as there’s nobody I can find that has the same build revision I have, to talk about issues with/experiences with.

[lbkNhubert]

@Matt_Falcon - it’s possible that they stopped them after my order, but when I check my orders on my account, the one that I ordered just before the EOY holidays indicates: “Delivery Batch 6”

Perhaps once they had sufficient stock to fulfill orders immediately the batching was discontinued in the US.

[Matt_Falcon]

Yeah, I’ve heard that quite a few times lately (it’s the frustrating non-answer I keep getting). Batches determined revision numbers, though, it seems. It’s just that batches were, for lack of a more clear designation of revision number, a way to indicate what revision you had.

Now, it’s more like Apple - on the outside it’s just printed “Framework” (like “iPhone”), and you’ve got to dig in or have external knowledge as to whether it’s a 6, 7, 8, etc. But so far, I haven’t been able to find any distinction between revisions outside of batch number - to which I don’t know what mine is, because some group of folks at Framework didn’t think it was useful for US shipments anymore

[lbkNhubert]

I posted the above before I saw the other thread. That order was placed on 12/11, if that helps any wrt figuring out revision. If there’s anything specific that you’d like to know or have tested let me know. I use a batch one (rev 1?) as my primary machine. The newer one is a family/test machine, so I have more latitude to fiddle around with it.

[Matt_Falcon]

@lbkNhubert

The newer one is a family/test machine, so I have more latitude to fiddle around with it.

Interesting. Well, I would love to compare Windows power plan settings pages between the two - if you’re a Windows guy. This page, on mine, has always been barren - and it came with a strange default setting of 20 minutes for hibernate time (I changed it to “never”, of course, as I hibernate when/where needed by myself with “shutdown -h”). I really don’t care to burn out the SSD that quickly! haha.

It’s a bit barren, compared to the typical power plan page on any other computer – like the computer I’m increasingly considering my “dream PC” (if it weren’t horribly overpowered with an unnecessary dedicated GPU), a ThinkPad P52:

That’s what a power plan page SHOULD look like But this computer doesn’t do any of that “modern standby” stuff - and it even has real touchpad buttons

[Matt_Falcon]

I only want to know what the heck revision my computer is, as to what group of owners I belong to.

[Fraoch]

Keep in mind everyone here must treat everyone else with respect. With that in mind I’ve had to delete some posts and edit others.

We’ll keep the thread open for now because @Matt_Falcon deserves help and answers to his legitimate questions, but if things degenerate further this thread will be closed.

[Matt_Falcon]

@anon81945988

Where did you get this idea that batches relate to revisions? Because they are coincident in some cases ???

Tempo audio chip change in particular (leaving the driver pack feeling incomplete/broken, as if for another model, because there’s no driver for Tempo, leaving me with “High Definition Audio Device”). My experience with being part of a small company and shipping ever-changing revisions also had a lot to do with it (it wasn’t even organized enough to call things “batches” - just a constant churn of revisions on-the-fly; everyone got whatever version we had at the time). Everyone seemed to know “their batch” except for me. Thus, this change to remove batch numbers because they were deemed “irrelevant” left me feeling homeless in the community - a computer with no group identity, no point-in-time I can say “hey I have a Batch 8” and everyone immediately knows what point-in-time that refers to. Whether Batch 8 and 9, 10 are the same is irrelevant - I can say I have a Batch 8 and know that’s what it is, what it has, and who else has a similar one.

That was my goal here with asking, and why I think it’s still good to know. If it isn’t possible to clearly refer to US shipments as batches anymore, there ought to at least be some other way to refer to ourselves as such a point-in-time model of machine. (like a v1.03 motherboard - something!)

All I ask is for some sort of identity, because it’s very clear that a Batch 1 isn’t quite the same as a Batch 8 (Realtek vs Tempo, at the bare minimum - heard murmurs of other uncertain changes). At the moment, all there is to go by is “Batch #”, even if that’s not the most relevant detail - it provides grounding for people to refer to their builds.

[Fraoch]

@anon81945988 makes a good point.

At first, all shipments were in limited quantity batches. They probably were all manufactured at once so they all had identical hardware. Then feedback came back about improvements that should be made. So Batch 2 incorporated some improvements, batch 3 some more, batch 4 a few more, etc. Each batch is effectively its own revision.

Then things start to get fuzzier. The accelerometer gets dropped and the Tempo chip gets substituted. @RandomUser says this was Batch 4 but I have a Batch 4 and I don’t have a Tempo chip and I do have an accelerometer. So Batch 5? 6?

The announcement that orders for the U.S. and Canada will be filled from stock comes around Batch 8. Batches 8, 9 and 10 are larger quantity batches, likely allocated from the even larger batches going to build stock for the U.S. and Canada. Perhaps they’re even being continuously manufactured by then. By that point, it’s impossible to tell which batch a U.S./Canada unit is. Revisions are still occurring, @RandomUser referred to an alternate source FET, for example, but it’s not clear cut or easy to identify.

Yes, revision numbers would be useful. Perhaps we could decode the FRANBMCP serial numbers?

It could also be that it’s not very relevant at this point. If you have an issue, others in your revision might have the same issue, or they might not. But others in other revisions may also have the same issue. There really doesn’t seem to be any consistency and things don’t seem directly attributable to batches or revisions at this point. This is based on looking at many, many threads.

[Monster_user]

@Fraoch

Then feedback came back about improvements that should be made. So Batch 2 incorporated some improvements, batch 3 some more, batch 4 a few more, etc. Each batch is effectively its own revision.

@Fraoch

Then things start to get fuzzier. The accelerometer gets dropped and the Tempo chip gets substituted. @RandomUser says this was Batch 4 but I have a Batch 4 and I don’t have a Tempo chip and I do have an accelerometer. So Batch 5? 6?

Around batch 4, Framework ran into supply chain issues with the sound cards. After I ordered my Batch 5, I visited the forums around the time Batch 4 was being received with the Tempo sound card. At that time, Batch 5 was a mixed bag. I had hoped the would still be shipping accelerometer in my batch 5.

[Val]

Yeah, my Batch 4 unit has a Tempo chip and shipped with 3.06. Sometime mid-batch they likely had to make the revision, or used up what stock they had left.

[SusanSez]

I completely understand the need to gauge what group your laptop was originally in. I am US, recieving mine around April 1st and was informed that no batch applied to me. It was a little frustrating, but when I needed help, Framework was stand up! That’s really what matters in the long run.

[Iann_C]

Maybe this “no batch” thing was because they were preparing 12th gen laptop + mod to the lid and hinges… It was the last batch of its kind. Meaning they produced the last orders + some extras to fill the gap before the shipment of 12th gen batches.
Ordered a 12th gen 1 month ago on “batch 2”