In all likelihood those of comparative laptops are hardly carry around worthy. The FW 16 is 2kg and I would have skipped it if it were not.
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After watching the video, I feel like the most you can say is that cheaper laptops might cost the same amount or a bit less in the long term. He sort of makes a point like buying a newer laptop is better because there might be a better screen or trackpad, but those things are also upgradeable on the FW so I don’t think that argument holds up well.
His big comparison laptop is the Lenovo Legion 5 Slim, which does have comparable headline specs, but no USB4 ports, no input module capability, keyboard is not qmk compatible, no port flexibility, only supports 140w power delivery, and can only be configured with up to 1tb ssd and 16 gb ram and win11 home. The only advantage I see on the lenovo is that it does have a couple more ports and a full size SD card reader.
So FW16 has quite a few premium features that will warrant the price difference for some, and in the long run might not be more expensive depending on upgrade vs replacement cost.
Personally, I ordered a FW16 with 64GB RAM and no storage or OS and the rgb macro pad. That’s simply not possible with any of the alternatives in Dave2D’s video, so I definitely don’t feel like my order was too expensive, although I can see how the pricing would warrant some skepticism if you only care about getting a cpu/gpu pair with comparable gaming performance and more modest ram and storage configs
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Most companies need to produce X amount of products, sell them all before they see profits. This is much easier when there are dozens of similarly shaped products, at various price brackets, high-end products often subsidise lower-end product manufacturing. Similar tooling, mixed lines, ability to mass order certain components etc, all of these are cost saving measures.
The Dave2D’s video in question, whole video is based on price of product A vs B.
I think the video has fair criticism on high cost of FW16, it’s not price competitive with similar specs of other laptops. My hope is, FW products are price competitive in next couple of years.
At the same time, FW16 should cost more because the company is not using existing established manufacturing methods, while their competitors make dozens of very similarly shaped, sized products and benefit from having the tooling and expertise that make this smoother process for them. Scale is so important to their pricing.
All of us, who own a FW13 and will own a FW16, we are early adopters, that alone has high cost associated with it and most of us (I hope) are happy to pay it, for FW to keep existing and making upgrades available while they scale and become price competitive.
The idea of a repairable laptop is not new, FW is not the first one to do it, but all other companies that had the resources to get it done, did it and promptly gave up on it.
I would like all of us to think, why these well funded companies gave up on repairable product so fast?
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There isn’t much serious competition to keep prices down in the modular laptop space, so they’re probably pricing the laptop according to what they know we’ll pay for it instead of what it costs to make.
Framework Laptop 16 is 2.1 kg without discrete graphics and 2.4 kg with discrete graphics.
Lenovo Legion Slim 5 with 7840HS and 4060 is 2.3 kg.
HP Victus 16 with 7840HS and 4060 is 2.3 kg.
Acer Nitro 16 with 7840HS and 4060 is 2.7 kg.
Asus TUF A16 with 7940HS and 7700S is 2.2 kg.
All but the Nitro 16 are within 10% of the weight of each other.
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Fair enough then.
I’ve ordered the barebones version with no SSD (got some kicking around), RAM (will buy when it ships), GPU (don’t need one) or numpad (just no) and for me that’s kind of the point. There aren’t many 16" laptops which don’t force some kind of discrete GPU on you, for a start; I don’t want one and they increase price and weight and kill battery life. In a couple of years when I want to upgrade the CPU I can just buy a new mainboard for £600-700(?) and pop the 7840HS in some kind of enclosure as a media PC.
I end up with my ideal laptop; nothing I don’t want, everything I do with the exact specs I need. That’s definitely worth what I’m paying for this.
For me personally there is also the question of e-waste. I’ve generated a LOT of that over the years; if I can avoid it in the future then I’m happy to spend a bit extra.
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I think the GPU module is a bit expensive. $400 for basically a 7600 (7700S is a lower wattage desktop 7600) is a bit much. If AIBs can make a profit selling them for $269 and actually started dropping prices on the desktop card, why can’t framework offer it for $300? I can’t give up any of the other features so I will be forking out $1600, but this one I can definitely skip because it’s just not worth the extra price
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In response to everyone commenting, I can completely see your point. The FW16 is, by engineering standards, a miracle of engineering. Its exactly the kind of laptop that the world needs, and, once the price has fallen, I’m sure that we will see it everywhere. However, in terms of actual price to performance, and the components and resources we are being shown now, (not being promised), the FW16 undeniably falls behind competition. So many feature of it are epic: modularity, upgradability, its open-source nature, but it does seem like an unreasonable investment when you look at other options. Even taking into consideration the idea that this computer could be the last one you need to buy, working on the assumption that screens, trackpads, keyboards, mainboards, and GPUs will benefit from replacement every few years, its hard to see a cost benefit. Despite all of this, I, like everyone else reading this, am really excited to see what framework 16 will bring to the world.
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Probably because :
- R&D
- Relatively low volume sales → higher margin
- The initial investment in setting up the production lines
- The insurance framework will keep support for the laptop for a long time
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It is a niche product with super low production numbers.
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With all due respect to Dave2D, he did not account for things like Linux support and repairablility, two things (especially the latter) Framework buyers buy their laptops for.
Also, I don’t really need the upgradability of Framework laptops. I bought a 16 inch Framework Laptop because it actually is fully repairable and is the only Linux laptop with an ANSI keyboard, a dGPU, and a 16:10 screen. No other Linux laptop has all of those with this level of repairability and modularity.
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It’s very expensive and it’s a big mistake to price it because most customers won’t go for a framework.
It should reduce the profit margin until it is an established company.
But right now I have doubts about the future of framework 16.
FW13 worked so idk. Let’s see how it will turn out.
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This kind of language is absolutely not acceptable in this forum. If you want to say you disagree with their decision, that’s fine, but you must do so in a way that complies with the community guidelines. I encourage you to edit your post and revisit this statement.
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I remind you that in the past there were modular devices that failed as in the case of Google or Click Arm One, that is why it is so important to make them accessible to the public.
With that price the first users will buy it and from there there will be hardly any sales.
I do not doubt the good work of the framework team but with framework 13 they did not make that mistake and that is why it has been well received by the public.
But with framework 16 they have been wrong, that price condemns sales in the medium-long term.
And I repeat, Marco 13 is a great team. The framework developers have all my respect but they need to urgently reconsider the price.
I wish him a frame 16 the greatest success, I think it’s a great idea.
I want to add one thing:
I wish the framework the best, I love their idea, they deserve to do great.
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The Framework 16 has 7840hs/7940hs 8 core CPUs while Framework 13 had 7640u/7840u CPUs. Thus, the least expensive Framework 16 CPU is similar to the most expensive Framework 13 CPU. The Framework 16 has two M2 slots and an expansion bay. It can run six port expansion cards at a time as opposed to four on the 13.
OK, so you might complain that Framework 16 is $230 more than Framework 13. However, Framework 16 appears to have more upgrade options, and my old eyes don’t like the smaller screen. It’s true when all you are after is a larger screen the Framework 16 is expensive. However, for a gaming computer it is a good price. The reviews seem to indicate that the Framework 16 is better for multimedia which does interest me.
Note: Framework sold out 6 batches of Framework 16 preorders in less than 24 hours from their launching preorders.
In the past I got good new computers on clearance for a low price because they couldn’t be upgraded. However, I got burned by Windows 11 because of a 7th gen i7 although I have TPM 2.0 and 16GB ram. I could install Windows 11 with a hack that cannot upgrade only new install. I don’t want to rebuild my software on a six-year-old computer and not sure such an install would demand a new license. Thus, I put in a Framework preorder.
Framework is having to decide what the best models are to come out with first. These designs show the change in computers. The DVD drive is long gone. Now the 2.5" drive bay is gone. Yet these computers have far more performance and drive space than previous modes, especially with what you can do with DIY models.
Kyle_Reis’s comments noted, and corrections made. Thank you for noting mistakes.
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There is no 7740.
The Framework 13 offers the 7840u and 7640u.
The Framework 16 offers the 7940hs and 7840hs.
I wouldn’t say that the 7840hs is better than the 7840u. They are the same class of CPU, just the 7840hs is optimized to run at higher power (35-54w cTDP) while the 7840u is optimized to run at lower power (15-30w cTDP).
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no doubt, but I’ll be waiting for a price drop or an upgraded version since actually just buying a 7600 and plugging it in to an old PSU would yield similar performance
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