Some thought about Dave2D video about Framework (16) performance vs price

Framework Laptop 16
1

The Dave2D video in question:

In this video, Dave2D argued Framework laptop, particularly the 16-inch model, is overpriced for the specification it offers. Dave2D ordered a DIY version of this 16-inch with an external GPU model. He continued to argue that the upgradeability feature may become obsolete after 3-4 years. According to him, not many people will upgrade a laptop and the design itself will soon look outdated in these 3-4 years.

Watching his video opinion, I want to state some of my perspectives regarding Framework and the 16-inch model. First of all, the laptop is indeed more expensive than similarly spec other mainstream brands. It is notable at that time Dave2D video was made; the final price of a DIY laptop is more expensive than buying a ready-made one. Looking at the Framework’s “factory” visit video (by investor LTT), the DIY version is a fully assembled version that have components taken out after testing out the build (for any defects). So, the DIY version seemed like an additional step in the production line, which can increase cost. In my opinion, this 16-inch DIY version is not made to just replace the assembled version and you get the fun of installing components by yourself. You will get the profit of choosing DIY if you already have some components (like SSD, memory, OS, etc.) to install. That will definitely safe cost compared to the assembled one. The price of components like memory or SSD in Framework’s marketplace is reasonable, compared to competitors like Apple which is very much overpriced.

Dave2D then argued that most people will not upgrade a laptop component but rather buy a new model. While it might look like there is a truth in his statement, most major brands do not make upgrade possible in the first place. People do upgrade, replace, and repair. A simple scenario is replacing your SSD when it already wears down. SSD is consumable and has a finite number of write cycles. The trend for consumer laptops -as set by the leading industry, Apple- if not reversed, is soldering everything on board. People do need to upgrade memory to stay relevant when the requirement of the operating system increases. The laptop ports can wear out from repeated plug-unplugging and may need to be replaced. Almost all newer models in the major brands soldered the WiFi card. This wireless technology is changing, and people will benefit from being able to upgrade. Laptop screen can damage. I have seen a model from a major brand that replacing a damage screen means replacing entire display panel with camera and mic. This is very much costly for the environment too. People do damage the laptop casing. I have seen many dented MacBooks. It is wonderful to see a video of a person replacing a dented casing of a working Framework mainboard and internals with a newer one.

Lastly, Dave2D argued that people will get “bored” from the same design (e.g., casing) of the laptop. Well, it might be true as people get bored using the same model of car and might be looking for a newer model that is more modern. However, I would argue (and give some ideas – I believe Framework teams has already this idea in their vision for the future anyway) that upgradeability can also happen with the casing. You can imagine having a futuristic carbon-fiber (or diamond whatever) casing upgrade with the same working internals. A more modern and business-appealing (or gamer-friendly RGBish) laptop casing option.

So, in this case, I disagree with many of Dave2D arguments in the video. I still think that Framework needs to be supported. The price of their upgradable featured laptop, albeit more expensive than regular mainstream brand, is reasonable. Their products can bring benefit to the users in the long run.

11 Likes
2

I agree, I think it comes down to the fact that Framework always talks about repairing their laptops before they talk about upgrading them. While their systems to allow for upgrades, it’s the ease of repair (and even the ease of repair through upgrading) that is more important to the company.

There is a chance that someone will upgrade their laptop’s GPU in 3-4 years, and if the laptops CPU doesn’t keep up, you will likely be able to upgrade the CPU too with a new mainboard. But I think the more likely case is that some people may just be using parts of the laptop so much that in 3-4 or even 6-8 years that they will need new ones. At that point it will cost less to upgrade, since new technologies will make other ones cheaper, and previous gen models will be available for a discount. No other company will give you the same amount of repairability as Framework in that situation, and that’s what I’m willing to pay the extra premuim for. If that isn’t a feature that you need, then Framework isn’t the right laptop for you, and that’s okay. Buy whatever laptop is best for you.

5 Likes
3

Honestly, I see the repairability and availability of replacement parts to be a bigger deal than upgradeability. Don’t get me wrong, the ability to upgrade is great and it might mean it’s easier to use the same machine for 7-10 years. But these days, for general use, many people could probably get by with a laptop for 7-10 years without a major performance bump (maybe chuck a bit more RAM or larger SSD in it at some point). For those who would be fine using the same laptop for the better part of a decade, what would normally prompt them to purchase a new machine would be if some part of it outright failed and repair was prohibitively expensive or even impossible to due lack of parts availability.

To me, that’s why the Framework 16 is a decent value for the price. For those not necessarily needing to be on the cutting edge of performance every few years, they could still feasibly use this laptop for the next 7-10 years, fully expecting to be able to repair it if it breaks and go right on using it.

Granted, I’m sure there are plenty of people with other laptops who managed to use them that long without ever needing a repair in the first place. Or maybe they were even able to get a laptop repaired if they needed to. But I’m sure there are also many people out there who had to replace a machine they would otherwise have been fine continuing to use because something on it failed and it was impractical or impossible to repair it.

If I spend $1,500 on a sleek new computer from another company, I have to go in with the understanding that there’s a good chance it’s scrap if something on it fails a year or two in. If nothing fails, I might be able to use it for 10 years. If something does fail, it very well may be impossible or impractically expensive to repair it. On the other hand, if I spend $2,000 on a FW 16 and something fails in a year or two, I know there’s a very good chance it will be repairable. Add the modularity and upgradability on top and I think there’s a good value argument to be made.

9 Likes
5

The casing didn’t change much expect size. It’s still rectangular for i believe every laptop out there.

If you dont like your back cover, just slap some sticker or something else on it.
DBrand will probably release some sort of skins for the new FW16 anyway.

2 Likes
6

Maybe he should ask Lenovo, why they continue to produce ThinkPads. I don’t got the impression, the black rectangles changed in the last 20 years. :wink:

Besides some “gaming”-machines, most computers are black or metallic cuboids.

3 Likes
7

Sounds like a them problem! Probably the same people that wax lyrical about bezel’s being too “thicc”.

3 Likes
8

Dave2D is entitled to his opinion, and I am entitled to think he is completely missing the point. I have a now 11 year old workstation/server built on an Asrock Rack E3C224 motherboard, 32GB ECC RAM, and an E3-1241v3. I have added stuff to it over the years, and switched to a better case (I needed more room for storage drives). At this time I have zero plans to retire it. If I had the option to easily add or upgrade my laptops over the same time span I would have but after five years they tend to age out. I still love the look and design of my old T430 and my T480s. I would be completely content with these if they had modern hardware. My Framework 13 offers that possibility hence I don’t mind paying a premium. The old laptops are in near mint condition, I am not worried about wearing it out, or getting bored with the look. It is a tool, but I guess some people buy hardware to look cool. If I had a need for a 16" laptop it would be the Framework hands down.

7 Likes
9

Yeah, all of his criticisms sound like a them problem. It’s all illustrating the exact point of Framework’s existence: that we live in a disposable culture. If all you care about is performance/$, then yeah, a Framework doesn’t make sense for you right now because it’s much more expensive. Disposables are cheaper because we buy them because they’re cheaper because we buy them.

It’s honestly a really silly analysis and completely misses the point. Hopefully someday there is enough of an infrastructure behind Framework (and hopefully by then other companies building similar products) that they’ll be able to compete on price/benchmark score.

But that’s not the worst of it. This argument completely ignores that you’re also buying features that simply don’t exist from other manufacturers no matter how much you spend. Not just the ability to repair or upgrade, but the ability to reconfigure on the fly, open-source design, the ability and resources to easily repurpose components including the entire mainboard when you upgrade, yeah, that stuff is worth paying extra for to some people. And if you don’t care about any of that, yeah, why pay for it? Again, hopefully someday you won’t pay a premium for it and it’ll just be everywhere whether you care about it or not, like smart TV’s or cameras in phones.

But to ignore all that and just look at CPU and display specs is like saying there’s no point in buying an oven cuz a toaster makes toast cheaper. YouTubers gotta YouTube. Heck, even Linus put out that stinker lately, though I don’t think the internet is gonna bother beating Dave2D to his knees.

6 Likes
10

I think the problem is a Dave2D problem. I am happy to pay more for a repairable and upgradable laptop than one where everything is sodered on. I plan to use my FW16 indefinitely, although I expect that the FQ and AMD collab will result in new models for each new AMD advantage generation.

3 Likes
11

Quoted for Truth!

4 Likes
12

Dave2D obviously did not have the experience I had.

For my first personal laptop back in 2014 I saved up to buy the best I could - an MSI GS30 Shadow. It was extremely powerful (HS CPU) for its day and had the best integrated graphics available at the time, Intel Iris Xe “Crystal Well”. I paid $2000 CAD for it.

Stuffing such a powerful CPU in such a thin and small chassis meant lots of heat and very poor battery life. It struggled to get 2 hours of battery life just doing basic tasks.

Yes, it was powerful. But time and progress march on and by 2021 it was no longer class leading. That’s to be expected, of course. But my options by that time were to just outright replace it. Instead I got a Framework 13 i7-1165G7, for just slightly less, in 2021 dollars. It completely blew my old one out of the water even though it wasn’t an HS CPU, it operated much cooler and had much better battery life. Best of all, in 2022 I was able to upgrade it to an i7-1260P for a large increase in performance. I couldn’t have done that with my old laptop. I could update it further now, to 13th gen (small increase in performance from what I’ve seen) or to AMD (maybe bigger increase in performance). Or I could wait. Or I could upgrade to a previous gen for less, later. It’s up to me.

Try that with any other laptop, without replacing it outright.

Dave2D missed the point.

7 Likes
13

David is right about this for the most part.

2000 Dollar for a gaming notebook is quite a lot, and I think repairability and upgradeability is a feature, although it takes some speculation and generous assumption, to make this really sound like a financial benefit.

I would say, the 16 inch is meant to catapult the company. I am sure they simply make a bigger cut on this one, and I would be fine with that on its own.

Ultimately, I am ready to pay almost double the price for a laptop, because I like the concept.

Although there are a few issues who might seem small on their own, they are really breaking the camel’s back for me personally, when they to hand over so much for a device.

I am sure this is subjective, but the narrow arrow keys, a GPU that is limited to 8 GB VRAM, still no Coreboot, and bypass charging that requires a reboot, are just not enough.

For me, at least.

I hope you all buy it, and I get later a device, that I am happy with. Probably at around 2035.
:wink:

1 Like
14

Depends on your viewpoint. For those used to pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap and throw them away in 3 years consumer laptops, sure. Dave missed the point.

That’s a bit harsh. There’s been a lot of engineering that’s gone into the FW16. The expansion bay, reconfigurable hotswap input devices, etc that havn’t been done before. That engineering time, prototyping and testing doesn’t come cheap. The devices that attach to them will be initially be more expensive to manufacture compared to an off the shelf component as fitted to the gaming laptops in your local electronics shop.

TL;DR To say Framework are profiteering is disingenuous.

Show me a keyboard layout and I’ll show you someone who complains about it. At least with FW16 you can change the keyboard, and the specs are published so any other company can choose to make whatever input device they desire to fit. The default options are fine for most people.

GPU is just an initial offering. Complaining that an entire ecosystem of options isn’t launching is unrealistic. Let them get the initial machine in production first, eh?

Same for Coreboot. It’s an upgradable laptop, maybe they can add it for later revision boards. Given they’re partnered with AMD for the initial version, it wasn’t likely given the tinfoil hat wearing gamer who wants a repairable laptop is a niche within a niche within a niche.

9 Likes
15

My current laptop costed me €200. It’s a refurbished Elitebook, and besides gaming, is there absolutely no reason for me to upgrade.

If I do, I could upgrade to some other refurbished 10th gen Intel for like €400.
No matter how you twist and turn this, a Framework will always be more expansive for me, and not even more resourceful, because a used device is always less stress for the environment.

Could be. Framework surely did something new on this, and as a software developer myself, can I see how this is more effort. Although I fail to see, how this is effort that costs a lot of money, and maybe that’s just me.

To say they are profiteering is saying they are working under capitalism.
Obviously they are profiteering, I don’t know how this is disingenuous.

Super, you can change the keyboard, and there is no alternative available.
Smaller companies, like Slimbook and NovaCustom, allow you completely customized keyboard layouts. Nothing like that here. No alternative layout, and no custom fonts, icons, or anything.

Nada. And obviously no full sized arrows. As said, that’s just a no no for me, when I pay €2000 for a laptop. And I have met countless people, alone here on the forum, who say the same.

Particularly since they already had at least full sized left and right, does this look like a hit in the face, and a significant step back.

It is outdated at release.

Did you look into the forum? People are screaming for Coreboot since years.
Its an absolutely critical part for a lot of people, and that for very technical reasons.

Here: Does framework plan to move to CoreBoot or like open source Bios?
And here: Coreboot on Framework Laptop 16?
And here: [RESPONDED] Coreboot on the Framework Laptop
And here: Do I get a choice of an american megatrends or coreboot UEFI
Oh, and here: Coreboot and Intel ME
And one more: Intel Boot Guard & Coreboot

And nothing to say about the fact, that they have already released a Coreboot Laptop, in the form of the Chromebook, that just comes with its own drawbacks.

They can. System76 has done the work for them. They don’t want to do it.

1 Like
16

You’re preaching to the choir. I’m typing this on a £200 refurbished ThinkPad T480. Eagerly anticipating the FW16 though.

You work for free, and don’t take a wage?

Your original posts infers that FW are making excessive profit. Don’t try and move the goalposts after you’ve kicked the ball. :joy:

They’ve got to launch it at some point, delaying it for a year so they can make 32 different keyboard layouts for all the niches isn’t going to happen.

It’s open source. Go make your own keyboard, or find some friends with a similar interest and work together. Isn’t that the open source way?

And I work with a building full of people who can’t comprehend why anyone would use a TrackPoint. Doesn’t make them right!

Now you’re just ranting. :wink:

Nonsense. It’s 8 months old. And before you even try it the VRAM argument doesn’t wash with me. I’ve seen no signs of issues on an 8GB RTX 3070 even at 3440x1440 despite reddit telling me the card would explode and take out my firstborn. Better programming is the solution, not installing even more VRAM.

The noisy Tinfoil hat minority can carry on buying decade old ThinkPads or a new System76 laptop. That’s their freedom of choice. The number of pre-orders for the FW16 says it’s not an issue.

To sum up and TL;DR - modern product development iterates and continually improves. Expecting the holy grail of every personal wishlist feature you can imagine in a laptop was … optimistic. But at least the potential to customise it is there. Unlike your €200 old HP.

3 Likes
17

I think this is the key right here. There’s just no reason for you to spend this kind of money, or any money, really! And that’s fine! At this price, it’s absolutely not for everyone, and it’s certainly not for someone who doesn’t need a new laptop.

Same reason I wouldn’t spend $50,000 on an SUV. My car is fine, and that size just doesn’t make sense for me. It makes sense for others, though, and sure, if it were $10,000 and got 50mpg and were 180" long and everything else I wanted, sure then I’d be interested! I’m not making YouTube videos about why they aren’t what I want, though.

3 Likes
18

No. I said its fine. They can earn their share, and why not. I never said anything against that.

I think they will finally make any profit.

These companies are smaller than Framework, with less money behind. Its not difficult. Its not hard. They decide, they dont care. That’s all.

No. The open source way is, that I can do these things. Read the licenses.

No, you don’t get the point.

Some people would only buy a laptop with a proper track point.
I pay 2000€ only for a laptop, that is a complete upgrade, and not a partial downgrade to my current setup. The 16 is a partial downgrade in several aspects.

Why would I pay for that?

No, thats exactly how I feel.

Doesnt help you with VR. And does not help you with the fact, that modern consoles come with more VRAM, so the ports will pretty much require that. I dont buy a laptop today, that is on the brink of being outdated. And there is the thing called benchmarks.

The first 8GB card was released 2015. So on top of 2k, it costs me another 400 to 600 in 2 years, if I still want to game on this thing. And VR today is also significantly limited.

Thats just my use case, and my preferences.

I don’t use such a device.

To me, it’s not only about security, but about the technical improvements that a modern replacement for UEFI brings with it. It promotes itself as different, Linux friendly, open source tooting, freedom loving and what not.

That is absolutely in line with core boot, and they don’t care about it.

People gaslight instead, and say it’s not important. We are at that point, where people make excuses, instead of improving the devices.

As said, Framework is a still born. Dead and another soulless company, before it even took off. Good bye

19

You’re entitled to your opinion. But it’s only that. An opinion.

11 batches of pre-orders indicates otherwise.

Toodles.

4 Likes
20

If you feel like that, why are you even here? Just to antagonize others?

4 Likes
21

Time to remind everyone of the Community Guidelines.

We’ll start issuing warnings and deleting posts if this continues, so let’s keep debate centered on the video.

2 Likes