How would you think of Framework if they released a buggy bios update once a month ? Sustainable/repairable has nothing to do with frequent updates. Meaningful updates are what you’re probably after, and it is what Framework is trying to deliver.
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What would you think of Framework if they released only one buggy beta bios update since a product was launched?
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That seems like both a straw man and a false dichotomy. Nobody has suggested they want buggy releases on a frequent schedule, and “fast, buggy releases” vs. “taking forever” are not the only options. Framework has had more than 7 months since the first beta release to get it solid enough for a final release.
Given that Thunderbolt certification likely requires a lot of slow back-and-forth with a certification company, I think it’s safe to assume Framework has been working on that for at least 4 or 6 months prior to that first beta release.
So we’re likely at a year or more of work on this update, with no final release. I would be less upset if this release was only the Thunderbolt updates (when we bought the laptop and board, we knew that this wasn’t ready at time of purchase and would have to wait), but it’s not. We’re also missing out on:
- Fixes for several security issues
- Updates to support the larger battery pack (which has been available to buy – but unusable for us – for several months now)
- A fix for the broken thermal throttling behavior that has many of us frustrated
- Probably other things; I haven’t trolled the forums for a while to see what others are upset about
If Framework had prioritized the smaller fixes and updates, and put them in one or more smaller releases, and had been able to push the Thunderbolt certification efforts as a separate, parallel development track, I think a lot of us would be much less upset with these delays.
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Are there any updates coming for this topic that is transparent as the AMD delay? While I understand the company is small and there has been a lot of work for 13th Gen Intel and AMD, current customers and longevity should also have some priority.
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At this point I think it would be fair to consider the 12th gen abandoned. When a product no longer receives security updates, that tells me the product is at the end of its lifecycle and needs to be retired.
Pretty absurd given these released just last year. It’s ironic that this laptop has become the shortest-lived laptop I’ve ever owned.
If they do ever release a working patch, I wouldn’t even call that continued support – I’d call it a resurection.
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This echoes my feelings exactly.
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Based on my feelings, most of their dev team is focused on framework 16 and 13th gen framework 13. They simply don’t have enough people to support 12th Gen. In contrast, they have the full team to work on 11th Gen bios update when there is only one bios need to be updated. However, I will expect at least one more bios update in the worst case because of the battery support. My suggestion for Framework is to hire more people.
The fact that what you posted is your impression, speaks volumes. If there is a lack of support and the product is dead 1 year after arrival (not that I’m saying it is, because there is no written policy that states how long support will last) then any press about R2R or more specifically how “green” the product is amounts to little more than greenwashing.
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Framework is fortunate to have a tech savy userbase, who will test those Beta bios for them, knowing it can lead to issues.
For my part i install these versions, because i want it to come out of beta asap and be as stable as possible.
Code is written by humans and humans make mistakes - thats fine.
What is not fine with me, is putting a Beta Bios out there, that has some serious issues, is not downgradeable and then not release anything (not even a new Beta) for 8 months.
Didnt know if i should laugh or cry, when you talked about realistic expectations here…
Sure weekly updates probably dont make sense, but just coming out every few months and saying “we are working on it” is simply not enough anymore.
I realize that there are growing pains inside the company, releasing 3 models this year.
Specially in this situation you should focus on delivering the initially promised feature set.
Instead you want to include the 61WH battery support and seemingly some other features, taking additional time.
Please stop treating your active and supportive community like that, or one day they might be gone .
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Well, since Framework is quite blunt in this thread that bios support for the 11th gen will be discontinued after just two years, or at least massively scaled back after all, I have increasingly less hope for this and future Gen 12 updates.
Since the Gen-11 bios issue is about the usability of Intel wifi cards, and a complete mainboard update is advised as solution, I would also call this greenwashing. Then I can better buy cheaper devices with hard-wired Wifi cards and batteries and exchange them when they are older (and after a few Bios updates 
)
But the sales success of the 16" devices seems to prove Framework right. Maybe they can just do without us few „demanding people“ here in this thread as customers?!
In any case, I’m still curious how Framework will provide the announced business support with such “dedication”.
Sorry if this sounds increasingly frustrated, but currently I am. Both with the lack of updates and with the very questionable information policy. I can’t and don’t want to imply anything with this, but I find it very hard to understand by now that there were two internal test versions and it wasn’t possible to bring out an at least partially corrected beta version in 8 months.
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My understanding is that they are currently crazy busy for the FL16 & AMD launches, and they’ll have more time after that.
Now if everybody could stop being so dramatic about it… (and the reality is really deformed in your words, like for example NO nobody from FW is being “blunt” that I can tell)
And no, nothing is being discontinued.
Hell, they even recently released a hardware fix for the 11th gen!
So software will even more continue to be supported, and fixes are expected to be released.
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Sure they havent publicly dropped support for the 12th gen, but I almost wish they would explicitly drop support instead of leaving it riddled with vulnerabilities and still calling it supported.
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@Mapleleaf :
My own initial wording was „frankly“ when writing about the 11th-Gen-Post, but google translate suggested „blunt“ when I checked my text there and so I used that. English is not my first language so I don‘t always catch all nuances of word meanings. Sorry for that.
Aside from that I don‘t see any deformed reality. I was simply trying to sum up my current impressions and trying to explain why I have them. That these arise from a certain frustration caused by (too?) high expectations I was trying to say in my last sentences.
I can understand why some are being dramatic…one beta release in a year for the 12th gen Intel boards, does not cut it. It is a problem, and I think some may believe that by being dramatic it might actually get the attention it needs. I don’t believe that is the case, but yes continued commenting on having issues with the current state of things is the only outlet customers have left to voice their displeasure with the situation.
None of which are remotely exploitable without extended direct access, so not a huge deal, but yes it absolutely should be taken care of.
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Folks, if you have specific, detailed questions you’d like answered about BIOS updates, list them and I will ask the appropriate team.
That said, the linked thread I said I did not forsee a feature update to BIOS happening on that generation is was not stated as fact. It was my assumption. I did not state this as a done deal, that is an engineering question.
I should have been clearer on this. But the issue on that thread was a feature request.
Now, if we can focus on specific concerns, please list them and I will ask the appropriate team for clarification.
If you are experiencing a specific error or another related issue, feel free to open a ticket.
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The specific concerns that I am aware of are:
- Getting the latest CVE security updates in a timely fashion.
- Getting support for the new higher capacity battery.
- Getting support for the full power savings functionality mentioned with the HDMI rework mod and/or new DisplayPort firmware.
I personally care more about that last one (and any other potential bug fixes or stability fixes), as that is likely to be the most impactful for my use-case.
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- All the changes/updates that were originally listed
- New larger capacity support
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Going to let this build up over the weekend, I have a reminder to check this Monday.
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In addition to what @serisman said:
- Fix for the aggressive/“stuck” 400MHz thermal throttling issues
- Thunderbolt certification fixes
To me, the thermal throttling issues are by far my #1 issue, and make the laptop pretty much useless to me for gaming (even light/old gaming; think Stellaris or Age of Empires II). Framework support has been unable to help, even after shipping me a new mainboard. It’s pretty clear to me that this is a firmware issue (or something even lower level if the firmware isn’t responsible).
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