System: Framework Laptop 13 AMD 7040 Series 7840U, 61Wh battery, SK Hynix Platinum P41 SSD, 1X32GB DDR5 RAM.
OS: Arch Linux (the problem persists on Windows)
Battery: 61Wh
I discovered the slow charging a few days earlier when I read that ByteBender mentioned the power draw is only 20W switched off when the computer was “quite cold” without mentioned the actual temperature. I then paid attention to this. Instead of using the laptop immediately I decided to charge it after being left in the living room for a while, so I found that this problem.
The problem is the battery charging is very slow in temperatures far from cold, about 15°C to 20°C. For reference, Earth’s surface temperature is 14.76 °C.
I tested multiple times, that if you subject the battery to 15°C to 20°C, you can get persistent slow charging up to 4.5~5 hours to full charge. More data is needed to make a conclusion.
Possible cause:
- My battery is defective. In this case, I’ll contact support to send me a new battery and have this battery returned.
- The current batch (or batches) have BMS calibration problems. My guess is that the battery reduced current as it believed it’s too cold, but the temperature sensor calibration is way off, like more than 10 degrees. In this case these battery might need to be recalled. As there might be other problems that can’t be easily identified by the user and could affect the reliably of the battery.
- The BMS restrict the current intentionally. I this case I no longer recommend this laptop, at least with this battery pack as the versatility of the system is kind of poor. No matter how advanced the “tweaked chemistry” to improve performance if the BMS is inadequate the performance will be capped regardless.
Other users also kind of discovered the problem, like the “cold start” shown here and the charge curve shown here, more testing is encouraged to identify this problem more accurately. Your help is highly appreciated.
Tech reviewers like @CJ_Elevated could you make a video on this, there is too little attention of this anomaly.
Intel FW13’s ectool is able to display the battery temperature, users of Intel FW13 could you post the measured battery temperature when the charging is very slow? The information your provided will give insight about the BMS measurement error.
Enthusiasts, is there a way to “fine tune” the battery using publicized standards?
Framework developers, could you please track the problem and communicate with the battery pack suppliers? This problem worsens the versatility of the laptop and could potentially affect users in cold places like Canada and many outdoor users in temperate regions.
Li-ion can be fast charged from 5°C to 45°C (41 to 113°F). Below 5°C, the charge current should be reduced, and no charging is permitted at freezing temperatures because of the reduced diffusion rates on the anode. During charge, the internal cell resistance causes a slight temperature rise that compensates for some of the cold. The internal resistance of all batteries rises when cold, prolonging charge times noticeably.
The above quote is presented on many articles, most of them just referencing each other like it’s a common scientific consensus. The battery cannot be charged below 0°C and below 5°C(10°C with some batteries) charging should be slowed down. However, 20°C is like, way, way off. In comparison, my previous laptops can be charged full speed at 15°C, one of them even have 10°C to 30°C charging temperature written on the user manual. And my smartphone is capable of charging at low speed(1.5A) at 7°C and full speed(4.5A) at 12°C(cooled in a fridge). I’m sorry that temperature below 15°C is not covered in this thread as I’m currently in a temperate location, and putting the laptop into a fridge is too risky as the laptop is not water resistant and could be damaged from condensation.
1st measurement:
Outside air temperature: 15°C
Room temperature: 20°C
Time left unattended: 2 hours
Resumed from: Suspend
Battery level: 15%
Summary
$ sudo ectool battery
Battery 0 info:
OEM name: NVT
Model number: FRANGWAT01
Chemistry : LION
Serial number: 0035
Design capacity: 3915 mAh
Last full charge: 3983 mAh
Design output voltage 15480 mV
Cycle count 46
Present voltage 15141 mV
Present current 737 mA
Remaining capacity 575 mAh
Desired voltage 17800 mV
Desired current 783 mA
Flags 0x0b AC_PRESENT BATT_PRESENT CHARGING
Recovered to 40+W charging via: Web browsing for 20 minutes.
2nd measurement:
Outside air temperature: 14°C
Room temperature: 19°C
Time left unattended: 8 hours
Resumed from: Shutdown
Battery level: 36%
Summary
$ sudo ectool battery
Battery 0 info:
OEM name: NVT
Model number: FRANGWAT01
Chemistry : LION
Serial number: 0035
Design capacity: 3915 mAh
Last full charge: 4010 mAh
Design output voltage 15480 mV
Cycle count 47
Present voltage 15601 mV
Present current 759 mA
Remaining capacity 1432 mAh
Desired voltage 17800 mV
Desired current 783 mA
Flags 0x0b AC_PRESENT BATT_PRESENT CHARGING
$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1
native-path: BAT1
vendor: NVT
model: FRANGWA
serial: 0035
power supply: yes
updated: Sun 05 May 2024 03:07:54 PM AEST (11 seconds ago)
has history: yes
has statistics: yes
battery
present: yes
rechargeable: yes
state: charging
warning-level: none
energy: 22.5389 Wh
energy-empty: 0 Wh
energy-full: 62.0748 Wh
energy-full-design: 60.6042 Wh
energy-rate: 11.7493 W
voltage: 15.626 V
charge-cycles: 47
time to full: 3.4 hours
percentage: 36%
capacity: 100%
technology: lithium-ion
icon-name: 'battery-good-charging-symbolic'
History (charge):
1714885644 36.000 charging
History (rate):
1714885584 11.749 charging
Temperature reading:
$ sudo ectool temps all
--sensor name -------- temperature -------- ratio (fan_off and fan_max) --
local_f75303@4d 294 K (= 21 C) 0% (313 K and 343 K)
cpu_f75303@4d 296 K (= 23 C) 0% (319 K and 327 K)
ddr_f75303@4d 295 K (= 22 C) N/A (fan_off=401 K, fan_max=401 K)
cpu@4c 294 K (= 21 C) 0% (376 K and 378 K)
Recovered to 40+W charging via: never recovered naturally, only after stressing the CPU via s-tui for one minute
3rd measurement:
Outside air temperature: 16°C
Room temperature: 20°C
Time left unattended: 1 hour
Resumed from: Suspend
Battery level: 33%
Summary
$ sudo ectool battery
Battery 0 info:
OEM name: NVT
Model number: FRANGWAT01
Chemistry : LION
Serial number: 0035
Design capacity: 3915 mAh
Last full charge: 4010 mAh
Design output voltage 15480 mV
Cycle count 47
Present voltage 15579 mV
Present current 760 mA
Remaining capacity 1366 mAh
Desired voltage 17800 mV
Desired current 783 mA
Flags 0x0b AC_PRESENT BATT_PRESENT CHARGING
$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1
native-path: BAT1
vendor: NVT
model: FRANGWA
serial: 0035
power supply: yes
updated: Sun 05 May 2024 05:24:26 PM AEST (23 seconds ago)
has history: yes
has statistics: yes
battery
present: yes
rechargeable: yes
state: charging
warning-level: none
energy: 21.1612 Wh
energy-empty: 0 Wh
energy-full: 62.0748 Wh
energy-full-design: 60.6042 Wh
energy-rate: 11.7648 W
voltage: 15.583 V
charge-cycles: 47
time to full: 3.5 hours
percentage: 34%
capacity: 100%
technology: lithium-ion
icon-name: 'battery-good-charging-symbolic'
History (charge):
1714893866 34.000 charging
History (rate):
1714893836 11.765 charging
1714893806 11.656 charging
1714893776 11.022 charging
Temperature reading:
--sensor name -------- temperature -------- ratio (fan_off and fan_max) --
local_f75303@4d 293 K (= 20 C) 0% (313 K and 343 K)
cpu_f75303@4d 294 K (= 21 C) 0% (319 K and 327 K)
ddr_f75303@4d 295 K (= 22 C) N/A (fan_off=401 K, fan_max=401 K)
cpu@4c 294 K (= 21 C) 0% (376 K and 378 K)
Recovered to 40+W charging via: Web browsing for 15 minutes.
4th measurement:
Outside air temperature: 16°C
Room temperature: 20°C
Time left unattended: 1 hour
Resumed from: Suspend
Battery level: 40%
Summary
$ sudo ectool battery
Battery 0 info:
OEM name: NVT
Model number: FRANGWAT01
Chemistry : LION
Serial number: 0035
Design capacity: 3915 mAh
Last full charge: 3755 mAh
Design output voltage 15480 mV
Cycle count 48
Present voltage 15836 mV
Present current 759 mA
Remaining capacity 1542 mAh
Desired voltage 17800 mV
Desired current 783 mA
Flags 0x0b AC_PRESENT BATT_PRESENT CHARGING
$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1
native-path: BAT1
vendor: NVT
model: FRANGWA
serial: 0035
power supply: yes
updated: Sun 05 May 2024 11:35:08 PM AEST (20 seconds ago)
has history: yes
has statistics: yes
battery
present: yes
rechargeable: yes
state: charging
warning-level: none
energy: 23.7928 Wh
energy-empty: 0 Wh
energy-full: 58.1274 Wh
energy-full-design: 60.6042 Wh
energy-rate: 11.7493 W
voltage: 15.833 V
charge-cycles: 48
time to full: 2.9 hours
percentage: 40%
capacity: 95.9132%
technology: lithium-ion
icon-name: 'battery-good-charging-symbolic'
Temperature reading:
$ sudo ectool temps all
--sensor name -------- temperature -------- ratio (fan_off and fan_max) --
local_f75303@4d 294 K (= 21 C) 0% (313 K and 343 K)
cpu_f75303@4d 296 K (= 23 C) 0% (319 K and 327 K)
ddr_f75303@4d 295 K (= 22 C) N/A (fan_off=401 K, fan_max=401 K)
cpu@4c 295 K (= 22 C) 0% (376 K and 378 K)
Recovered to 40+W charging via: Not recovered after 1 hour of charging, so I gave up and call it a day.
5th measurement:
Outside air temperature: 19°C
Room temperature: 23°C
Time left unattended: 8 hours
Resumed from: Hibernate
Battery level: 16%
Summary
This time, the laptop is under sunlight and the battery charges normally.
$ sudo ectool battery
Battery 0 info:
OEM name: NVT
Model number: FRANGWAT01
Chemistry : LION
Serial number: 0035
Design capacity: 3915 mAh
Last full charge: 3755 mAh
Design output voltage 15480 mV
Cycle count 48
Present voltage 16542 mV
Present current 3630 mA
Remaining capacity 620 mAh
Desired voltage 17800 mV
Desired current 3915 mA
Flags 0x0b AC_PRESENT BATT_PRESENT CHARGING
$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1
native-path: BAT1
vendor: NVT
model: FRANGWA
serial: 0035
power supply: yes
updated: Mon 06 May 2024 10:55:25 AM AEST (18 seconds ago)
has history: yes
has statistics: yes
battery
present: yes
rechargeable: yes
state: charging
warning-level: none
energy: 9.48924 Wh
energy-empty: 0 Wh
energy-full: 58.1274 Wh
energy-full-design: 60.6042 Wh
energy-rate: 53.6692 W
voltage: 16.506 V
charge-cycles: 48
time to full: 54.4 minutes
percentage: 16%
capacity: 95.9132%
technology: lithium-ion
icon-name: 'battery-caution-charging-symbolic'
History (charge):
1714956914 16.000 charging
History (rate):
1714956925 53.669 charging
1714956914 0.000 charging
1714956914 47.090 charging
and here are the temps
$ sudo ectool temps all
--sensor name -------- temperature -------- ratio (fan_off and fan_max) --
local_f75303@4d 295 K (= 22 C) 0% (313 K and 343 K)
cpu_f75303@4d 296 K (= 23 C) 0% (319 K and 327 K)
ddr_f75303@4d 297 K (= 24 C) N/A (fan_off=401 K, fan_max=401 K)
cpu@4c 295 K (= 22 C) 0% (376 K and 378 K)
6th (and final) measurement: This time I just left my laptop outdoor and let it drain to 5% and auto hibernate, then plugged it in and watched it to charge to 95%, charging speed is around 760mA during the whole time
Outside air temperature: 15°C
Room temperature: irrelevant
Time left unattended: 1 hour
Resumed from: Hibernate
Battery level: 5%
Summary
$ sudo ectool battery
Battery 0 info:
OEM name: NVT
Model number: FRANGWAT01
Chemistry : LION
Serial number: 0035
Design capacity: 3915 mAh
Last full charge: 3789 mAh
Design output voltage 15480 mV
Cycle count 50
Present voltage 15206 mV
Present current 759 mA
Remaining capacity 282 mAh
Desired voltage 17800 mV
Desired current 783 mA
Flags 0x0b AC_PRESENT BATT_PRESENT CHARGING
$ sudo ectool temps all
--sensor name -------- temperature -------- ratio (fan_off and fan_max) --
local_f75303@4d 295 K (= 22 C) 0% (313 K and 343 K)
cpu_f75303@4d 296 K (= 23 C) 0% (319 K and 327 K)
ddr_f75303@4d 295 K (= 22 C) N/A (fan_off=401 K, fan_max=401 K)
cpu@4c 295 K (= 22 C) 0% (376 K and 378 K)
$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1
native-path: BAT1
vendor: NVT
model: FRANGWA
serial: 0035
power supply: yes
updated: Tue 07 May 2024 08:49:51 PM AEST (28 seconds ago)
has history: yes
has statistics: yes
battery
present: yes
rechargeable: yes
state: charging
warning-level: none
energy: 4.22604 Wh
energy-empty: 0 Wh
energy-full: 58.6537 Wh
energy-full-design: 60.6042 Wh
energy-rate: 11.7493 W
voltage: 15.202 V
charge-cycles: 50
time to full: 4.6 hours
percentage: 7%
capacity: 96.7816%
technology: lithium-ion
icon-name: 'battery-caution-charging-symbolic'
History (charge):
1715078961 7.000 charging
History (rate):
1715078931 11.749 charging
At 25%
$ sudo ectool battery
Battery 0 info:
OEM name: NVT
Model number: FRANGWAT01
Chemistry : LION
Serial number: 0035
Design capacity: 3915 mAh
Last full charge: 3789 mAh
Design output voltage 15480 mV
Cycle count 50
Present voltage 15677 mV
Present current 760 mA
Remaining capacity 982 mAh
Desired voltage 17800 mV
Desired current 783 mA
Flags 0x0b AC_PRESENT BATT_PRESENT CHARGING
At 57%
$ sudo ectool battery
Battery 0 info:
OEM name: NVT
Model number: FRANGWAT01
Chemistry : LION
Serial number: 0035
Design capacity: 3915 mAh
Last full charge: 3789 mAh
Design output voltage 15480 mV
Cycle count 50
Present voltage 16321 mV
Present current 760 mA
Remaining capacity 2160 mAh
Desired voltage 17800 mV
Desired current 783 mA
Flags 0x0b AC_PRESENT BATT_PRESENT CHARGING
At 83%
$ sudo ectool battery
Battery 0 info:
OEM name: NVT
Model number: FRANGWAT01
Chemistry : LION
Serial number: 0035
Design capacity: 3915 mAh
Last full charge: 3789 mAh
Design output voltage 15480 mV
Cycle count 50
Present voltage 17460 mV
Present current 760 mA
Remaining capacity 3178 mAh
Desired voltage 17800 mV
Desired current 783 mA
Flags 0x0b AC_PRESENT BATT_PRESENT CHARGING
At 93%, current irrelevant as battery in constant voltage
$ sudo ectool battery
Battery 0 info:
OEM name: NVT
Model number: FRANGWAT01
Chemistry : LION
Serial number: 0035
Design capacity: 3915 mAh
Last full charge: 3789 mAh
Design output voltage 15480 mV
Cycle count 50
Present voltage 17753 mV
Present current 377 mA
Remaining capacity 3532 mAh
Desired voltage 17800 mV
Desired current 783 mA
Flags 0x0b AC_PRESENT BATT_PRESENT CHARGING
It’s clear that it’s the BMS’s problem, the voltage rise compared to discharge curve shows that the internal resistance is still very low so it’s not decreased performance(high internal resistance) lead to slow charging. The slow charging is entirely artificial.