I think we should avoid a debate about what does/doesn’t/should work well, I can’t see it yielding any fruit. It seems we agree that most Linux distros didn’t perform brilliantly on the v1 though.
I think it’s fair to take issue with companies that write marketing like this:
“We designed the Framework Laptop from the outset to be a great Linux laptop, and the Framework Laptop DIY Edition comes with no OS loaded to let you bring your favorite Linux distribution. We deliberately selected components and modules that didn’t require new kernel driver development and have been providing distro maintainers with pre-release hardware to test to improve compatibility.”
If we made a list of people’s favourite distros, most of them wouldn’t work that great, and I think they’d all have ropey suspend-related behaviour. In my book any “great Linux laptop” supports suspend, and it supports it well.
I believe the hardware should have worked far better with a modern Ubuntu based distro than it did (does).
I did test with the latest Ubuntu too (after Framework support kept re-iterating that I needed a recent kernel version, and said Ubuntu was supported). I still saw it failing to wake from sleep and losing a surprising amount of power. Also, Pop’s kernel (which I think is largely the Ubuntu kernel with a few extra bits pulled in) was two minor versions more recent than Ubuntu’s. I didn’t notice any differences between Pop 22.04 and Ubuntu 22.04.
I personally remember Ubuntu was great for T/X *30 series pretty quickly…and they weren’t even marketed by Lenovo to work well with Linux to begin with…unlike Framework’s marketing.
The only real issue at the time was nVidia and Optimus support.
And TLP was already able to manage the battery charging thresholds (the following changelog from TLP):
+++ 0.3.7 — 13.08.2012 +++
Packaging
implement startup/shutdown code as a command: tlp init
systemd support: tlp-init.service
deb recommends: tlp-rdw; suggests: acpi-call, tp-smapi
Features
Battery charge thresholds for Sandy Bridge and later models
(X220/T420/…) by means of tpacpi-bat
Use tpacpi-bat even when tp-smapi is not available; for
Ivy Bridge models (X230/T430/…)
DEVICES_TO_ENABLE_ON_SHUTDOWN to prevent other operating systems
from missing radios
DEVICES_TO_ENABLE_ON_STARTUP
tlp-stat:
show TRIM capabilty for SSDs
add SMART attributes (179, 241)
new cmdline options -r, -t, -T
show cpu temp, fan speed even if /proc/acpi/ibm/{thermal|fan}
are not available
show tp_smapi/power_avg
Bug fixes
#34: system start hangs in Fedora 17 (DigitalFlow)
#35: shutdown results in reboot; new config param
USB_AUTOSUSPEND_DISABLE_ON_SHUTDOWN (Thubo)
#38: wifi on/off not working with ipw2100/2200 (kristatos)
Now, regarding Framework Laptop…Ubuntu 22.04 is the first “good” release after the release of the laptop. The marketing wording made it sound as though it would have been great from the get-go, which wasn’t the case.
So the issue being pointed out here isn’t really with Ubuntu or any distro, but rather the poor experience with the laptop when “you bring your favorite Linux distribution” when the laptop is recieved with no OS as an option.
I sure did assume, as history has taught me this is the case. True enough your article talks about the need to tweak and 2 bugs which cause significant issues. So no, the Thinkpad was not just a drop in for Ubuntu. The individual was also quite knowledgeable about tweaking and did some stuff that I wouldn’t just assume everybody knows to get optimus working.
My experience has been that Fedora just works out of the box.
Ubuntu as well, but requires a few after installation prodding.
I’ve yet to get a laptop that doesn’t require something like this for Linux. My experience may be limited, and I don’t want to argue. I’m just sharing my experiences.
Futhermore, none of the laptops I have or have tried were designed to be repairable and upgradable in the way that the Framework laptop. This counts for a lot to me.
Still, if you were not happy, I think you did the right thing. I’m not judging or trying to shame you for that.
Optimus is a total pain in the ass. There are two motherboards for the T430, one with a discrete Nvidia chip, one without. I have the one without.
The bugs Janne talks about sound fairly typical to me; software not yet supporting new hardware. Happens all the time, and was clearly easily fixed by the maintainers. I think the difference with the Framework is that one of my serious issues — unnecessary battery drain from unused expansion cards — sounds like it’s never going to get a software fix. I might be wrong about that, but I think the fact that Framework couldn’t resolve it until a hardware change in v2 (that they highlighted when they announced it) is a big hint.
And it’s in that context that they’re still advertising the current model as a “great Linux laptop”. Which is bollocks. It’s also why I posted my experience in this thread.
It matters a lot to me too. Reducing my impact on the planet is a big deal.
As we’re chatting about repair/upgrade and ThinkPads, you’ve reminded me that I changed the motherboard in my T430. I didn’t want the Nvidia chip (its presence prevents you from using the battery-friendly Intel graphics with the DisplayPort — a bit weird, but that’s how they built it), so I downloaded the Hardware Maintenance Manual for the T430 and bought a new motherboard for it (which cost me £23).
It’s significantly more involved than changing the board in a Framework (I basically had all the component parts and lots of tiny bolts laid out across my desk), but ThinkPads are user serviceable if you’ve got a bit of patience. The service manuals are really good, and Lenovo make them freely available.
I also doubled the core count by changing the CPU. These were the days when you could still get laptops where everything wasn’t soldered down.
Framework are taking it several steps further (particularly with the promise of putting new hardware in an old chasis, which is fantastic) but they’re not the only game in town for repair. Lenovo have been supporting that for decades.
Yep, totally agree. I mentioned the discrepancy between the marketing and reality to Framework a few months ago, in the hope they’d tone it down. It’s because they haven’t done that I felt I should post something here.
That marketing is why I decided to buy one. Costly for me, costly for the planet.
There’s a lot of talk about what is best for the planet, sure a an unhappy consumer usually tries to satisfy their desire by consuming more. There’s none other responsible than the consumer, not the provider, who is another consumer.
And the planet doesn’t care who consumes it, it’s just an argument|fight amongst consumers as to who gets what.
Apart from the rockets sent to Mars and beyond, the planet doesn’t loose a bit.
Well that may be a focus but it’s only the other consumers you are making way for. Your impact on the planet isn’t going until you go.
If you invest in the soul and not ethics then sure your impact on the planet is significant, but ethically it’s just a consumer preference, like being vegan for many.
I’m not sure what you mean by “only the other consumers you are making way for”. I agree I’ll have a negative impact on global warming while I’m still around.
Had Framework’s Linux page honestly represented the state of play, I wouldn’t have bought something that generated 300 tonnes of CO2 in its manufacture.
When I say “best for the planet” I should probably be saying something more like “have less of a negative impact on the billions of unborn creatures who’ll inhabit this world in the years to come”. The actual planet will be totally fine. Until the sun dies, turns into a red dwarf, and swells to an enormous size. And even then it might be okay. Andromeda’s coming our way though, and I think that could get messy…
It’s all pointless really!
I’d like to minimise my impact. I don’t think that’s just a consumer preference. If I can reduce my footprint it’ll benefit (in a very small way) those who come after me. Tangibly.
I received a defective laptop. I have engaged support for a refund. Still waiting for a response. Anyone else having the same issue? Anyone else had success in getting their refund and can share how difficult or easy that process was?
The first was a query I had, what is actually wrong that you want to send it back, as for the returns, well even another experience can’t be taken as the way to go. Still I am genuinely interested in what was wrong, but felt it inappropriate to ask why as if they wanted to say they had opportunity
The second and third are off topic, so I won’t comment to much on that. It’s seems more than reasonably to address people concerns with a direct response but not to extend parts of a post that are off topic into new posts as you have done. I’ve done the same many times so this criticism is about you, although in this case it was you ~ and now I’m making a big issue of it for no good reason. But the last one was directed a me so here I am.
I hope you don’t reply to the paragraph and continue the off topic as a whole new post, but feel fee to add it to an on topic post
It’s a philosophy thing seen through Abrahamic and Buddhist eyes
The first sees events as based on time and traces it’s actions to the passed so giving the philosophy of cause and effect the second, although more based on the here and now. If you are not here you have no effect.
Hence the lifestyle differences
In the first people are trying to do good to emulate GOD in the second people are trying to reduce the doing and there is no God and no good nor bad and no effect on anything outside of the soul
I ended up deciding to return my 12gen i5. I used it for a week and while it worked fairly well I realized it just didn’t fit my needs. What I hoped for was a good Linux laptop and what I got was a great one. However what I actually needed was an ultra-portable and this really isn’t it. The battery life is just not up to the level I wanted.
For anyone out there wondering if they should get one I can offer this feedback:
The build quality is on par with Apple. As a former apple technician I think that’s very high praise indeed. It is simply fantastically well built and much more of a joy to work on than anything apple makes
The screen resolution takes a bit to get used to, but is actually much better than standard 13" laptops. Having the pixel density to be able to go 200% worked perfectly and it was actually nice to browse the web once I found out you can go full screen in ubuntu.
The sound is pretty darn decent on a flat surface. The downward firing speakers are horrible on your lap, but put it on a flat surface and it’s pretty good. Probably on par with the 2017 macbook air I’ve used but worse than my 2009 MBP
The battery life is going to be pretty poor. If you’re looking for something to take notes with at school all day, this is probably not it. You’re looking at max 7h Linux on the web. You just can’t beat the ultra-tight hardware-software integration Apple has.
Overall, I think if someone is looking for an incredible main laptop that isn’t Apple, this is the one to buy. Everything else out there just looks cheap in comparison and you really can’t beat the quality for price. For me, a person who has a main desktop and just needs a netbook this isn’t it. I didn’t realize it until I had it in my hands and used it for a bit, but yeah, not what I need.
If framework comes out with a low cost - low power version in the same footprint I think that would be an incredible buy for people like me. Think the chromebook version but priced at chromebook prices.
Anyways, hope that’s helpful to someone. Overall this was a pretty positive experience so far and all the best to Framework.
p.s. If you’re a business I think this could be a much better solution than other mainstream vendors. Likely you’ll be able to provide a much higher uptime using these and having some simple spare parts than you could ever achieve with a mainstream provider.
Didn’t you experience the lid / screen resonance / bounce with your 12th gen unit? Did Framework fix the issue in production units without announcing it? Or are you saying build quality as in the assembly quality…and not the component / product quality?
Also, for informational details, when were you an active Apple [employed or certified, I presume] technician for their consumer products? (Or were you an internal technician?)This loosely goes towards which product generation(s) the Framework Laptop is being compared with.
@Second_Coming , no I didn’t have any issues with the screen, it felt nice and solid to me. I believe they resolved that issue between the 11th to 12gen. I think the build and component quality was quite high quality. Examples like the thick aluminum frame, the wonderful attention to detail with captive screws and one screw that’s spring loaded to make disassembly easier. The layout was nice and everything had its place. They also did a lot less gluing than apple. At least what apple was doing around 2012, everything was glued down and it sucked.
I was active around 2012-2013, working on products at an Apple certified repair company but not for Apple at all. So we had access to all the manuals and repair guides for everything they sold. I think that 2008-2012 era was a peak in Apple design. Stuff before it was very costly to assemble and everything afterwards was starting to involve glue. My 2009 MBP is wonderful and I still use it. It’s just a joy to work on, I still pull it apart to clean regularly and have upgraded it numerous times.
that’s interesting, because some years ago I was given a 2009 macbook (essentially it needed a screen replacement, I was paid to do it then the owner decided they didn’t want it back so I was told to keep it) and it was by far the least reliable hardware I have ever owned. Even the computers I pulled out of the trash at school were more reliable.
As a proud owner of a 12th gen machine, I can definitely say they haven’t fixed it. My screen wobbles a lot with my desk, and if I move around the machine a bit too fast my screen falls open to the 180 degrees position. I think different people will have different experiences due to large variation in the individual hinges from the factory.
One thing I also noticed, my expansion cards seem to slightly differ in how flush they sit with the laptop when fully inserted, most sitting slightly too deep. Not a big deal, but it’s something I image Apple (especially pre-butterfly keyboard Apple) would have probably found unacceptable.
What I do really like is the touchpad, the glass surface brings it really close to my friend’s first-gen M1 MacBook and makes it a feature I actually want to use.
I had to get my mainboard replaced due to the orignal CPU constantly thermal throttling (after investigation this seems to possibly be an Intel issue, not a Framework issue), if my second board had the same issue then I probably would have returned it.
Anyone else having the same issue? Anyone else had success in getting their refund and can share how difficult or easy that process was?
