I noticed that i cannot really connect many devices to the front ports (3 & 6) of my Framework 16 Laptop. Due to the described expansion card layout, I had decided to use these ports for my USB-A expansion cards.
Since ports 1 & 4 are the only ones supporting 240 W charging AND USB 4.0 they are pretty much the only sensible option for USB-C (and Thunderbolt which works flaky at best already) and since ports 3 & 6 DO NOT support display output, I can only use them for ethernet (which works) for audio (which works), micro-sd (which works) and for USB-A devices (mostly external drives) which do NOT work in most cases.
I learned that ports 3 & 6 are low power ports and only support 0.9A @ 5V (= 4.5 W, see Does the FW16 really support USB 3.2 on Ports 3,6 ? (front ports) - #12 by James3). This means that none of my external hard drives work on them as they require more power (both 2.5 HDD and NVME SSD in enclosure tested) and most of my USB thumbdrives are flaky and rarely connect. If I am correct, these ports are therefore unsuitable for USB-C, USB-A and Display output, as the only thing they can drive are low power thumbdrives (and even that inconsistently).
So here is my question: Am I doing something wrong here or are these ports essentially useless? If they don’t support display output and cannot power most USB devices, the only thing they are useful for are stuff most people rarely use. I rarely use audio or ethernet, but I use a lot of USB-A and C devices and this means that currently they block all ports except 3 & 6, leaving no room for a display expansion card as these don’t work in these ports?
I can’t answer your question directly, but I haven’t had any issues with USB joysticks, game controllers, or USB-A thumb drives (I don’t have many, and they’re mostly older ones) in the right-hand port nearest the user, which I think is port 6. That’s also where I usually put the audio expansion card too, when I use it. I haven’t tried anything else there yet, haven’t needed to.
I do have a powered USB-A hub, in case I ever need more ports. Haven’t had any need for it in years though, I rarely need to plug more than one device and one power cable in at the same time.
You’re basically right, but it’s kind of weird to discount the majority of USB peripherals other than power-hungry drives. The math works out easier for me, since I run one audio, two USB-A (on 2 and 6), and then three USB-C for both power and external displays, and I don’t interact with external drives much, other than old USB 2 thumb drives.
If I was USB-A-heavy and had a DisplayPort card in there and used external drives that needed power from the laptop, I could see where you’re coming from. I’d probably just have fewer USB-C cards then and think of the front two as “legacy” ports. Don’t see a way around it.
On my Framework Laptop 13, despite all ports are able to output 5V3A, the current is artificially limited to 5V1.6A when using the USB-A expansion card. Using that card on other devices i.e. power bank or using the USBC directly are able to get sustained>2A output.
As I said, when I connect the USB-A expansion card to a USBC power brick or power bank, I’m able to draw sustained higher current, some 5V2A others 9V2A, no protocol is used in the former case(I used power resistors directly connected to +5V and GND), i.e. higher than 1.5A, so it’s not the computer not be able to supply that higher current, is that the computer somehow decided intentionally not to supply it. Maybe a BIOS update can fix it, as it’s necessary in some cases like connecting to 2 USB HDDs(1A each, 2A in total) via a USB 3.0 hub
Edit: I’m going to use a third party USB-C to USB-A cable on this and other laptops and compare the results
Ok, maybe saying that they are useless is a bit much but ports 3 & 6 have quite limited compatibility and this was not properly communicated by framework. I still love my FW16 but finding something like this out after buying and testing is really a bad user experience. I am curious if the storage expansion card works on one of these modules. It likely does not and also does not reach its maximum read and write speeds there which means that another card is limited to ports 1, 2, 4, 5.
If you read the wikipedia link, you’ll see that 2A is over the USB-A limit, when you properly follow the USB specs. There are devices that use non-standard USB protocols, or just completely ignore the USB specs. You can always ignore specs. For example, you could push 30A over a USB-A connector & cable, and it will work, until the contacts heat up to the point of the connector deforming or the insulation melting off the wires. Of course, you’re not pushing it that hard. But the line has to be placed someplace, taking into consideration a range of quality for connectors & cables you might encounter. For a computer, it seems 2A was placed over the limit for USB-A. Dedicated power supplies do go over this, but the Framework laptop is a computer, and it seems it’s following the USB specs for a computer. Hard to blame them too blame hard for following specs, even if it would be nice if it was higher.
You want to be careful connecting resistors straight to power supplies, they weren’t designed with that in mind. Limit it to no more than a couple seconds at least. USB power supplies may not have proper overcurrent protection. Instead they some may rely on their voltage dropping as current rises very high. Intelligent devices, like a phone, will compain & can’t use the power if the voltage drops too low. But a simple resistor doesn’t care. You can roast the componets in your power supply.
Switch to a USB-C hub. Either one that provides USB-A ports for the hard drives or use adapters for them.
Basically all unpowered hubs are out of spec. The USB spec allows only 100mA/150mA ports on unpowered hubs. Most hubs try to provide more anyways, being therefore out of spec.
I guess you have a point about USB 3.2 being 1.5A (<1.6A) but not every laptop has this, in fact, the majority modren laptop does not restrict this current. In comparison, ancient laptop can’t even draw 1.2A before cutting of on the USB (2.0 IIRC) port.
Here are two other, one popular(Lenovo) the other niche(Panasonic), computers’ USB-A outputs connected to a power bank. As you can see on the Panasonic, the USB-A port can deliver 2A to the power bank, while the USB-C to USB-A outputs 1.7A(higher than 1.6A cutoff on the Framework) mainly because too much internal resistance of the many connectors. On the Lenovo, the USB-C to USB-A can deliver sustained 2A. They are all higher than the outdated specs on the Wikipedia link.
Before saying “voltage too low the port is overloaded”, I would explain that I was using a crappy cable with high internal resistance, as shown below, when doing 3A the source is 4.8V while the sink is 4.3V, thus when doing 1.5A the source voltage is about 4.9V to 4.95V, well before overloading.
0.9A @ 5V that’s USB 3.0, not even USB 3.2 standard(which is 1.5A), as shown in your linked thread the data speed is also USB 3.0. It might because of negotiation, i.e. might deliver 1.5A when negotiated 3.2. However since 3 & 6 is not PD and can’t receive any power, it’s more likely that 0.9A is hardware limited, unlike the software limited on the ports of FL13
@Charlie_6
I think the USB 3.0 and 3.2 standard document talks about 0.9A/5V, but allows more if the USB port supports more than 1 USB channel. I.e. USB 20Gbps and above.
The FW16 USB supports 10Gbps on USB 3.x ports, and 40Gbps on USB 4 ports.
So, 0.9A/5V is complying to the USB 3.2 standard.
This means that I have to assume that devices with USB 3.2 or lower (downward compatibility) should work on that port. Nowhere is mentioned that power delivery is limited below what people expect of such a port (and to be said, most people do not know nor should be expected to know official standards and documentation). On any other laptop you buy, USB3.2 means you can connect devices that do not require an additional power source. If port functionality is limited below expectations, this should be properly communicated, otherwise information is misleading. I first though my ports or expansion cards were broken before I found some additional information in this forum. Because I never had a case like this. If a complete laymen would experience stuff like this, they would simply think their device was broken and send it back.
If a USB 3.2 data port can deliver USB 3.0 power does it still classify as USB 3.2 port?
Why does the manufacturer of a 2023 laptop decided to make the port the minimum requirement of power rating, despite a 10y/o laptop can deliver 1.5A on a USB2.0 port (BC1.2 protocol)
Isn’t that USB3.1? The “1” means 1 “channel”
The number that comes after the “3.” is just the revision of the standard. USB 3.2 did introduce optional support for a second channel, but single channel is still allowed.
USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 = 2Ă— 10 Gbps channels
USB 3.2 Gen 1x2 = 2Ă— 5 Gbps channels
USB 3.2 Gen 2x1 = 1Ă— 10 Gbps channel
USB 3.2 Gen 1x1 = 1Ă— 5 Gbps channel
USB 3.1 Gen 2 = 1Ă— 10 Gbps channel
USB 3.1 Gen 1 = 1Ă— 5 Gbps channel
USB 3.0 = 1Ă— 5 Gbps channel
Framework supports USB 3.2 Gen 2x1 (which only has one channel, but is one of the USB versions specified in the USB 3.2 standard so the USB 3.2 name technically applies following the USB spec).
I definitely think they should put power specifications on this chart for the consumers to know ahead of time. I’ve personally not run into any issues because most of my devices don’t exceed the limits of ports 3 and 6. My external drive enclosures (Orico 2.5 HDD @ 5V 900mA on usb-C; Sabrent M.2 SSD NVME/SATA) are both low power so they’ve never given me trouble. However when charging my phone on those ports it charges on slow mode.
Everything needs to be clearly stated for us to know ahead of time. I do wonder if this will be changed on future motherboards. Possibly have a section for specs of each individual motherboards?
I cannot say I have encountered any problems with my ports 3 or 6. Right now they are dedicated for my mouse wireless receiver and for a micro sd card and they do their job perfectly well. I have used flash drives on them without issues and have also run power to things like a laptop cooler to them without issues. They are more limited but they are far from useless.
As with earlier versions of USB, USB 3.0 provides power at 5 volts nominal. The available current for low-power (one unit load) SuperSpeed devices is 150 mA, an increase from the 100 mA defined in USB 2.0. For high-power SuperSpeed devices, the limit is six unit loads or 900 mA (4.5 W)—almost twice USB 2.0’s 500 mA.[13]: section 9.2.5.1 Power Budgeting USB 3.0 - Wikipedia
All my previous laptops, including old laptops before the introduction of USB3.0, can deliver at least 1.5A from their USB 2.0 port.
I don’t want to sound too skeptical, but it looks like the FL16’s extremely underpowered 3&6 ports while stay in compliance with standards are partly the result of the deliberately confusing renaming of said USB standard (USB 3.0 to USB 3.2) and the renaming happened before the introduction of FL16, so…
I don’t think the old 3.0 has any reason to be named USB 3.2. I think the 5Gbps should be named USB 3.0, 10Gbps USB 3.1 and 20Gbps USB 3.2. in this case the 3&6 ports have USB 3.1 data speed and USB 3.0 power
