Does the FW16 really support USB 3.2 on Ports 3,6 ? (front ports)

James3 · May 25, 2024, 8:51pm

Hi,

No matter what I plug into the expansion ports 3, 6. I only seem to get USB 2.0 speeds.
“lsusb -t” shows a speed of 480 Mbps which is USB 2.0 speeds, not USB 3.x speeds of 5Gbps or 10 Gbps.
I also have a device that only supports USB 3.x and does not support USB 2.0, and this fails to show up at all in ports 3,6.

Can anyone get more than 480 Mbps on ports 3,6 ?
If ports 3,6 are actually USB 2.0 instead of the advertised USB 3.2, then the following reference page needs updating.

For reference:

Cbigfoot · May 26, 2024, 10:05am

On my front left port In windows 11 i get 871MB/s read and 925MB/s Write on a 500 GB Crucial X8 ssd with crystal disk mark and maintain 625MB/s when copying video files from my 770m to it.
In the middle left i get 971MB/s and 939MB/s with crystal disk mark and 650MB/s maintained copy.
Front Right:

Front Left:

Middle Left:

James3 · May 26, 2024, 11:45am

I think I might have a hardware fault.
For me, in Ubuntu:
“lsusb” displays a list of devices.
“lsusb -v” hangs half way through the output and I get these messages in the syslog:

2024-05-26T12:42:08.370806+01:00 fred kernel: xhci_hcd 0000:c1:00.3: Timeout while waiting for setup device command
2024-05-26T12:42:13.746303+01:00 fred kernel: xhci_hcd 0000:c1:00.3: Timeout while waiting for setup device command
2024-05-26T12:42:13.954369+01:00 fred kernel: usb 2-2: device not accepting address 68, error -62
2024-05-26T12:42:13.962566+01:00 fred kernel: usb usb2-port2: unable to enumerate USB device

Please can someone else try “lsusb -v” and see if it completes or hangs.
I did the “lsusb -v” with no expansion cards installed and it hangs.

James3 · May 26, 2024, 3:43pm

When I first boot up I have:

lsusb
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 05e3:0610 Genesys Logic, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 05e3:0610 Genesys Logic, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 004: ID 05e3:0610 Genesys Logic, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 005: ID 0e8d:e616 MediaTek Inc. Wireless_Device
Bus 001 Device 006: ID 27c6:609c Shenzhen Goodix Technology Co.,Ltd. Goodix USB2.0 MISC
Bus 001 Device 007: ID 32ac:0018 Framework Laptop 16 Keyboard Module - ISO
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 05e3:0625 Genesys Logic, Inc. USB3.2 Hub
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 006 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 007 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 008 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub

After the “lsusb -v” timeout, I get this:

lsusb
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 05e3:0610 Genesys Logic, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 05e3:0610 Genesys Logic, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 004: ID 05e3:0610 Genesys Logic, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 005: ID 0e8d:e616 MediaTek Inc. Wireless_Device
Bus 001 Device 006: ID 27c6:609c Shenzhen Goodix Technology Co.,Ltd. Goodix USB2.0 MISC
Bus 001 Device 007: ID 32ac:0018 Framework Laptop 16 Keyboard Module - ISO
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 006 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 007 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 008 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub

Notice the missing line:
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 05e3:0625 Genesys Logic, Inc. USB3.2 Hub

That is the internal hub device that appears to give ports 3,6 USB 3.2 functions.
So, I seem to have a hardware fault with the “Genesys Logic, Inc. USB3.2 Hub” device.

James3 · June 3, 2024, 8:55pm

My external NVME enclosure is a RTL9210B.
It seems that the FW16 has problems with it.
It works in slots 1,2,4,5 but fails in slots 3,6.
While in slot 3 or 6 its blue light flashes on and off with period of about 1-2 seconds.
So, from this I conclude that it is being powered on then off then on etc.
The same behavior happens on:

Ubuntu 24.04
Fedora 40
Windows 11

So, this is not OS related.

So, I think the problem is most likely to be:

A problem with the Genesys Logic chip on the FW16 motherboard, or its firmware.
A problem with the EC chip or its firmware.
A problem with whatever chip on the motherboard is linked to the CC1,CC2 pins of the USB.
A problem with the RTL9210B chip, that for whatever reason only becomes a problem in ports 3,6.

Does anyone know of a way to capture and decode the CC1/CC2 pins that are involved in the USB-PD protocol?
I guess I am looking for a thing/adapter that has 2 usb-c connectors on it so a USB signal can pass through it, with the pins also broken out, so I can plug a logic analyzer onto it. Does anyone know of such an adapter?

Alan_Pearce · June 4, 2024, 5:45pm

I have an external NVMe enclosure marketed by SSK, which sounds very similar to what you have. I was using it with a USB-A cable in port 6 and showed similar symptoms to what you describe, and I think your conclusions are totally up the creek without a paddle. Mine flashes when the enclosure is being accessed, otherwise the LED is off. I think what you are seeing is the differences in the port capabilities, even when all of them are USB-C.

James3 · June 4, 2024, 5:57pm

I think my symptoms are different from yours.
For me, the device does not appear. It does not appear in “lsusb” or device manager.
I cannot read or write any data to it while in ports 3,6. But it works fine in ports 1,2,4,5.
It is a USB 3 device, and the port capabilities, being USB 3.2, should work with it but are not.
It fails just the same way, with a USB-A cable, or a USB-C cable.
So, I don’t think my conclusions are as “totally up the creek without a paddle” as one might think.

Cbigfoot · June 4, 2024, 10:58pm

So i checked my enclosure i have which is a RTL9210 M.2 NVME Adapter chip and it connects fine for me averages 755MB/s on port 3 with a 750se 1tb vs 805MB/s on port 1 (C to c) 795MB/s (A to C on port 6)

As i said before my Crucial X8 works fine
i did also test my T7 shield 2tb it is finikey on port 6 with USB A but works fine on Port 3 with type C

Victor_Lowther · June 13, 2024, 3:06pm

I am seeing something similar, with the added bonus that it also breaks hibernation. Do you have enough of a swap partition to see if systemctl hibernate actually hibernates? Mione fails the vast majority of the time with the following failures:

61.966484] xhci_hcd 0000:c1:00.3: PM: pci_pm_freeze(): hcd_pci_suspend+0x0/0x190 returns -16
[ 61.966492] xhci_hcd 0000:c1:00.3: PM: dpm_run_callback(): pci_pm_freeze+0x0/0x120 returns -16
[ 61.966497] xhci_hcd 0000:c1:00.3: PM: failed to freeze async: error -16

which is that same USB 3.2 hub that we see timing out and vanishing when probed.

James3 · June 14, 2024, 7:19am

Hi,

Maybe it is a combination of enclosure and device. I have a sn850x nvme.
Which do you have?

Cbigfoot · June 14, 2024, 10:01am

In my computer I have a sn770 2tb and a sn810 2tb during my 2nd testing. Had a seagate fire Cuda 2 TB during the 1st test rather than the sn810

In the enclosure was a sn750 se but have also had other ssds in the enclosure work in the ports assorted Toshiba 256 512 and 1tbs and Hynix and a adata 256gb ssd all in the same front left c to c. https://a.co/d/6xtCUMd Is the Realtek controller case that I use.

James3 · June 28, 2024, 11:42am

Hi,
I got this from FW support today (quote slightly edited by me for clarity).
“Ports 3/6 (as outlined here) are with lower power supply 0.9A@5V, which is 4.5W. All the rest ports should be good, 3A @ 5V which is 15W.”

This explains why my NVME SN850X, inside a RTL9210B USB enclosure, does not work in Slot 3/6.

For example, SN850X needs 3.3V DC and 2.8A = 9.24W (over PCIe bus), so one needs a USB port that can output more than 9.24W for it to work, so that should work in a 15W USB port, but it would not work in a 4.5W USB port.

deLemere · July 8, 2024, 9:02am

Hi James3,
I have the same Problem as you with a Icy-Box-Enclosure + AData-NVME-PCIE-SSD.

Does Support explain the strange behaviour from lsusb and why the mentioned Device (Bus 002 Device 002: ID 05e3:0625) does not show up in Hardware-Info (i am using Kubuntu). Got the same timeout-errors in syslog.

And does support explain why they don’t document the current of the FW16-USB-Ports. It is very annoying that we customers always have to guess what the characteristics of USB-Ports are.

Btw the german Wikipedia says, that a USB 3.2 Port delivers 3 Ampere.

James3 · July 8, 2024, 9:36am

@deLemere
I don’t know the answers to the questions you raise about FW support. I suggest you ask FW support.
The USB standards documents mention USB 3.2 900ma as the minimum, with options for higher outputs.
The FW16 has 6 USB ports. I guess they only took the option of higher outputs for 4 of the 6 ports. If you plug your problem device into different ports, it should work.
In my experiments, the ports 1 and 4 seem the most reliable with devices that need higher power, Ports 2 and 5 less reliable, but better than ports 3 and 6.
Also, if you read the schematics that they published for the FW16, it mentions 15W next to all 6 USB outputs, so also another cause for confusion.

deLemere · July 8, 2024, 9:45am

Thanks for your answer.
Just want to mention that i have a 20GBit-enclosure (USB 3.2 gen 2x2). The USB-Ports of the FW16 don’t support this in my experience. So don’t waste your money for such enclosures.

James3 · July 8, 2024, 9:49am

@deLemere
Correct 20Gbit USB 3.2 is not supported on the FW13/16.
Thunderbolt up to 40Gbps is supported on the FW16. (According to FW docs, I have not tested it)
So, get a Thunderbolt device and not a USB 20Gbit device.
Note, its probably not called Thunderbolt, its USB 4.0, but it is compatible with Thunderbolt devices.
Note: due to overheads, although it says 40Gbps, you only get about 27Gbps of data transfer.
Note: 40Gbps devices also get pretty hot.

Adrian_Joachim · July 8, 2024, 11:56am

That’s thunderbolt, USB4 actually comes surprisingly close the 40Gbit.

You are not wrong on that part XD

James3 · July 10, 2024, 11:20am

From various locations, I have found out the following:

Slot 1,4: Devices that need high power supplied to them work best in Slot port 1,4. (The ones closest to the display. My USB NVME storages works ok from here, as does transferring files via USB from my mobile phone.
Can receive USB-PD from the power brick, can only output 5V/3A (I don’t know if that is with USB-PD protocols or only legacy USB power protocols.)
It is a shame that it cannot delivery higher power USB-PD to external devices. USB-PD is supposed to be bi-directional, i.e. can receive or deliver power., but options for only a single direction are also accomodated in the standard.
Slot 2,5: The FW Power brick works best plugged into slot port 2,5, but only because of (1). When trying to transfer files from a mobile phone, it works for a bit, then disconnects, so I use (1) for my mobile phone also. I don’t know why this is less reliable than (1) but it is served by different USB hardware chips on the motherboard so maybe they have bugs in them.
Can receive USB-PD from the power brick, can only output 5V/3A (I don’t know if that is with USB-PD protocols or only legacy USB power protocols.)
Slot 3,6: Low power things like headphones, they work on slot port 3,6.
Cannot receive USB-PD from the FW power brick.
Can only output up to 5V / 900ma using legacy USB power protocols.