Availability in European Union for B2B purchase

Framework Laptop 13
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Hello Community and the Framework Makers!
First of all, thank you for existing! Thank you for standing by values such as serviceability, flexibility, freedom, upgrade-ability, and reminding commercial companies that those values do matter to people!

Question that I have is somewhat out of curiosity - I have read previous news about Framework Laptop availability in selected countries in Europe, and it got my hopes up :slight_smile:

Unfortunately, I also have read that there are a lot of European Union countries (Poland for example) - which Framework Laptop is still yet not available, with slim chances for it to change.

Now, from what I understood - there is a difficulty of selling the laptop in other countries because it’s hard to implement warranty, support, fulfill tax duties on behalf of consumers (in each country).

So, here comes my proposal/question - when there is a sale of service or goods between 2 companies in European Union and both companies are registered in VAT registry - there is no VAT to be paid (0% reverse charge), and the sale could be legal/final.

If those laptops are available in i.e. Germany, there could be also an European sub-company or a distributor - that could sale/ship those laptops as part of EU, making them available for ALL of the EU countries, at least for registered businesses (i.e. self employed people).

Additionally, if there would be something wrong with the hardware and warranty should be respected - businesses in EU wouldn’t have a problem to cover the shipping costs to bring the faulty hardware to a Framework EU location, where it could be serviced/maintained (with respecting the local country law).

I apologize upfront - if the question is dumb, or my perspective lacks information, but I figured it wouldn’t hurt to ask :wink:

Is the scenario to sell Framework Laptop for B2B purchase in European Union realistic? If not, why?

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I will proceed this by noting that I am not a Framework employee, only a volunteer moderator.

The process of managing a foreign subsidiary division, which is ultimately what you’re describing, is complex and expensive, especially for a company of ~50 globally. It also would only solve import requirements, and not things like IP licensing or logistics, which still may have to be managed per-country.

Framework has addressed this elsewhere, and it is seemingly out of the question for the moment.

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@Morpheus636, Thank you for your answer :slight_smile:

Also, I wish to add, that is not my intention to create pressure or undermine anyones business decisions or dreams.

I am just curious, because I feel like I have not received an clear answer about the actual reason of this partial Europe availability, and my mind is just looking for answers, and assuming this wouldn’t get people angry - to have a just normal conversation :slight_smile:

For example - one could say that Framework Team has 50 people in staff, and tries to be a global company, which is a hard goal to accomplish.

Thus, I am just thinking if the company is small, and tries to be global - “contributing 1 subsidiary division” for entire Europe, is that much?

Second idea, why not just “open” the market to passionate people that are running businesses in those countries, and make them distributors? In my opinion, even giving the people the option to purchase 10 laptops “and see how it goes” - would be a very positive thing.

I’m not sure how this is solved for supported EU countries, like France or Germany, because if the shippments are done from outside of EU to EU, then when there is a warranty issue - would those laptops have to be shipped back outside of EU scope? It doesn’t feel feasible or sustainable.

Thus if shipments can be done for Germany or France, why not rest of EU, or at least for businesses in EU?

Regarding the issue of IP licensing, I have heard from someone I really respect, that if you really want to reach the market, trying patent law globally is very expensive endevour, and it’s just simpler to be the first, and the most known, than to actually and effectively patent things.

Regarding logistics, if everything is coordinated from outside of EU boundaries - then I think I understand, but if this is not the issue - then I am truly not sure how Framework Team is able to provide the hardware to some EU countries, but not for others.

I also think, there are people in Europe, that still are waiting for Framework Laptop to be available in their countries, and you can see that by re-occurring questions about “forwarding mail” services, and then by subsequent reminders from Framework Team, that they don’t support this model.

This thread in my head, is just a hope to have some closure (sensible conversation), or a chance for success :slight_smile: - depending on the outcome :wink:

PS. As a reminder again, this is not my intention to create pressure. I also work in a small company, and I know the realities of how much work there is to do with a small team. If Framework Makers have a plan and reasons on doing things certain way, and I wish not to interfere with that. But if there is a chance to have a normal conversation, then why not do it :slight_smile:

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The reason for the partial Europe availability has been explained many times. This Reddit comment from TheTwistgibber is the most recent one. Also see his next reply in that thread where he specifically addresses having an EU subsidiary.

https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/10wuq56/comment/j7q1iks/

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I get the sense that I’m getting under your skin or/and that this topic is uncomfortable/sore, but for the sake of the argument, it doesn’t really say “why”:

we are a US company operating internationally and do not have an “entity” in any European country.

It’s just explaining what is the state of things as for today, and as for customers in EU - this is actually counter-intuitive decision, and really confusing (the marketing is global, availability is per country, and most of the people in EU think “but trading was supposed to be free between EU countries”).

Also, I have seen the pinned post of “Discussion of Freight Forwarding is Prohibited”, but I have not seen any pinned posts, with the explanation you have provided in above comments (i.e. subdivision costs, US company working internationally, limited staff).

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I apologize if this is how my messages are coming across. That is certainly not my intention - I am balancing trying to be concise and to the point while also being crunched for time.

I’ll refer to this statement from TheTwistgibber on Discord

It’s very, very complicated. It’s a common misconception that once you are in one country, you can be in all other EU member states. We are a US-based company without a legal EU state entity. Each country has its own requirements to enter legally and the process can take months/years. We would love to be everywhere, but the operational lift is a heavy burden for a very small company that has only been in existence for 3 years.
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As for the marketing being global, I would doubt that’s intentional (I’m sure the brand recognition doesn’t hurt, although maybe it does because Freight Forwarding causes so many problems). Almost all of Framework’s marketing is done word-of-mouth via social media. They don’t really run ads, and they can’t control where social media reaches.

It’s not pinned as those are reserved for must-know information and most people don’t need to know anything beyond the fact that it’s unavailable, but here is a post from a little over a year ago where Twist summarizes that explanation.

I hope this provides the information you’re looking for!

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@Morpheus636 Thank you for this beautiful, and clear answer! :slight_smile:

I get the sense that your answer could be pinned for the EU customers outside of supported countries - it addresses all of the questions I have asked in honest, informative, and reminding manner :slight_smile:

In the past - I had trouble getting through the long threads of people emotional comments, and some Framework Team attempts to save the situation, and it was hard to read/follow.

Your response is like a very elegant pill :+1: Thank you!

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