Framework 12 vs. HP Omnibook X

[BigT]

I will be making a video comparing the FW 12 to an HP Omnibook X flip. In the meantime, I’ll post some of my findings here. I’m only just getting started playing with the HP, but I just wanted to throw out a couple things to put the “problems” with the FW 12 into perspective.

First, I tested the display of the HP. It is the same resolution, has slightly lower coverage of sRGB (66% vs. 68% on my FW 12), lower max brightness (around 420 nits vs. 460), and worse pre-calibration color accuracy. It also has worse light bleed around the edges than my FW 12, though it seems about the same or maybe slightly better than the fairly severe light bleed Elevated Systems saw on his unit.

Also, as it sits next to me right now (the HP), having finished booting a few minutes ago, the fan is running at a moderate volume and aluminum bottom is quite warm. It’s just sitting there, doing nothing. Okay, I shouldn’t say that. It’s absolutely LOADED with bloatware that is probably doing something, lol.

Also, while the display/top cover on the HP is more rigid overall (it is all glued together), if I press in the middle behind the display, it flexes just as much and just as easily as the FW 12. Maybe even a bit easier, thought to be fair, it is a larger display. The aluminum body also flexes quite a bit when twisted, and creaks and clicks as much as my FW 12 does when I twist it. Again, it’s a slightly larger device, and slightly thinner. So I’m not knocking it for flexing a bit if I grab the sides and twist it. It is a bit more rigid than the FW 12. But it’s not a night and day difference.

I’ll have a lot more to say later, I’m sure. But for now, I just wanted to throw out some perspective that other devices in a similar price range have similar or worse displays, and even some aluminum framed devices have a fair amount of flex.

By the way, not long after I typed about the fan spinning, it finally turned off. But just as I was about to finish and post this, the display went to sleep, and the fan actually spun back up. Not sure what it was doing, but the fan was running loud enough to be heard over the video I’m listening to in the background (again, on a different device. The HP was doing nothing). A couple minutes after the display turned off, the computer must have gone to sleep, because the fan abruptly stopped.

Anyway, just wanted to say that so far, the display, heat, and even the flex doesn’t really seem so bad when compared to another 2-in-1 device in a similar price category. In fact, it stacks up pretty well so far.

Oh, and while the HP did charge from a 45 watt charger that the FW 12 has no problem with, the HP did give a warning that it was a “low wattage” charger, and said I should switch to a higher wattage one. So it did charge, but it gave a constant warning icon next to the battery icon. Not a big deal, just a difference I noticed.

[BigT]

And just to be clear, I’m not saying nobody should care about display quality, chassis flex, or whatever. The FW 12 certainly isn’t perfect. But it can be easy to get a little down about all the problems. But it’s just some perspective and a reminder that no device is perfect, and some of these problems are shared by at least some of the competition on the market. And the FW 12 surely won’t come out totally unscathed in this comparison. The Omnibook can be found on sale for around the price of a base, DIY FW 12 without RAM, SSD, or charger, but the HP undeniably has better specs, including a Ryzen AI 5 340.

[Guest264]

Quick search seems to show there is a lot of versions of the HP Omnibook X Flip. Would you have the specific model that you are comparing I presume its one of the wuxga models since you mention the screen being very similar. Price difference seems more substantial in my region with the cheapest omnibook flip I could find being ~300 usd more than a similar spec f12 (omnibook still has a decently better cpu).

Also just curious after watching the elevated systems review does your model have similar pealing with the touchpad or was that a qc issue specific to them. Granted most touchpads dont last forever and it being so easy to replace doesn’t make it the end of the world.

[BigT]

I don’t have the specific model in front of me, but it is 14", 1920x1200 resolution LCD, Ryzen AI 5 340.

I did not have the same display or touchpad issues that Elevated Systems had. My FW 12 also had a lot less light bleed on the display. Hopefully, support can fix some of his issues for him. And hopefully they aren’t widespread issues.

[Guest264]

Think I found the hp model seems like one of the regional variants of HP OmniBook X FlipNGAI 14-fk001. Seems to match up at almost the same price as the framework 12 i5 if you do DIY and pick framework provided parts and chargers in my region. Granted sourcing your own parts could probably drop the price of the framework 12 by a couple hundred.

[BigT]

I just did some drawing comparisons between the two. The Framework 12 is better in pretty much every way. Palm rejection is much better, and pressure sensitivity is far smoother and just plain works better and feels more natural. On the HP, it seems like adding pressure is okay, but as you lift up, it sort of doesn’t change for a bit, then changes all at once. It’s not very good.

Also, pressure on an LCD makes a bit of a light/color artifact around the pressure point. I find that when drawing with moderate pressure, there is a sort of “wake” in front of the pen as you go. This effect is less prominent on the FW 12, though it could be due to the pressure being distributed a bit more due to the ViaScreens Paperlike screen protector I have on it. Either way, the drawing experience overall is just better on the FW 12.

Edit: By the way, I was using the Metapen M2 for both.

[Second_Coming]

I’m doing some digging as well.

A middle of the road config (16GB RAM and 1TB storage) comes to $1339 CAD:

Going to see what $1339 can get me from other camps.

Update: From the Lenovo camp, something like this, for $90 less, without the stylus, and damn, soldered RAM, I think:

The processor comparison alone is brutal:

It’s this kind of competitive pricing that sway people to going into a buy-sell cycle almost annually.

[Jo_Hannes]

It’s short term thinking though. I am also buying upgradability. So I am guessing it should even out eventually

[JTrevail]

I’d be slashing a couple hundred off of that cost estimate and I would probably upgrade a base SKU from another manufacturer where I could also.

[Second_Coming]

…and $78 CAD for NBD on-site for the first year… If that’s not competitive, I don’t know what is.

Framework’s version of upgradeability to next gen board, generally speaking, has been almost at the same price as a full machine of other brands. i.e. it’s not cost savings…but environment saving…that’s my take of the actual benefit from Framework mission.

(Framework’s version of repairability is a cost saving…of money…but not time)

[jlnr]

I can understand the environmental benefit for the FW13, which is so well-specced that you can easily skip a few generations before you have to make use of it. With the FW12, you’d have to replace the screen, motherboard, and keyboard (for backlight) to catch up with the competition. That seems worse for the planet than just getting a better-specced laptop to begin with.

Linux support in a cheerful design is what got me.

[Rightaway]

The expected audience will not replace all those parts.
We nerds being attracted by this device are the guys to tinker and upgrade, but we were not in scope for the FW12.
For me, I would take a FW13 if it had touchscreen and be convertible. I would even pay the higher price.

Again I didn’t understand the comparison with MacBooks, that haven’t get an touchscreen till now

[BigT]

One thing to consider with pricing, is that Framework only sells you the hardware. Other brands fill the computer with other stuff to sell you. It might be third-party bloat that they get a kickback for putting on the machine. It may be their own software that collects and sells your data, or tries to directly sell you other products and services. Or it may just be an attempt to lock you into services they provide so they can later up-sell you subscriptions and such. Even Apple does this. Their stuff may not feel quite as much like “bloat,” but that’s just because they’ve changed the narrative for their stuff, and their software does generally suck less than some others. If I push the play/pause media button on a Mac, it opens Apple Music and wants me to sign up. There are constant reminders to back up everything to iCloud, and oh by the way, you can pay for more storage. Also, here’s a statement you have to acknowledge when you sign up about what data we’ll collect and how we’ll use it. And why not sign up for Apple TV while you’re at it? You can even buy some movies and TV that you can ONLY watch on Apple products once purchased. Or buy some songs on iTunes that have DRM built in? The point is, when you buy a Mac, it comes loaded with a dozen ways to give Apple more money.

Upon first powering up the HP, I got a screen that I could not bypass, that required me to separately agree to both HP and Mcafee license agreements, including their collection and use of data. Then I got a second page with a bunch of declarations about all the various ways HP would be tracking me, tracking my usage, saving all my data, and using it for marketing, tailoring ads and product recommendations for me, etc., etc. And it was all opt-out, not opt-in. And all this stuff happened before I could use the computer. And the computer is chock full of HP and third-party software. A normal Windows install takes a hefty chunk of space. Around 30-50 gigs, I think. Used space “out of the box,” on the HP is 75GB. On the FW 12, even after installing around 30GB games and other programs, 81GB is used.

That kind of stuff must be a significant revenue stream for those companies, and Framework does none of that. And I greatly appreciate that they don’t.

Now, if you were just going to wipe the drive of the HP and install Linux, maybe none of that stuff would bother you. But still, the lower price is mostly likely being made possible by all that stuff subsidizing the cost of the hardware. And Framework doesn’t do that.

[JTrevail]

Not to mention that if these parts do become available, the DIY could be configured with them from the get-go.

[Jorg_Frohberg]

thx alot for this thread. After mediocre reviews of fw12 esp. when it comes to screen and battery life I was doing the exact same comparison and it is very interesting to see your thoughts in direct comparison. Thank you very much for that.
How would you rate battery life comparing your fw12 with the Omnibook X Flip 14?

[BigT]

@Jorg_Frohberg

How would you rate battery life comparing your fw12 with the Omnibook X Flip 14?

I started running a battery life test on the HP this morning. Now that it isn’t running Windows updates or anything, it seems to be running cooler than the FW 12 while playing a YouTube video, internet browsing, and installing some programs. At least, so far.

In a few hours, I’ll have a better idea of battery life.

[BigT]

I mentioned the issue on the HP with pen pressure where it seemed like it gradually increased as you increased pressure, but it seemed to stay stuck at “high pressure” even as you lift up, then abruptly cuts off. Here is an example using the same program with the same pen, and I even tried to calibrate the pen pressure on the HP, and it made no difference.

This first pic is from the FW 12. You can see how the lines gradually thicken as I add pressure, and gradually thin as I remove pressure.

Here is a pic from the HP. The lines gradually thicken as I add pressure, but then just stay thick until they abruptly stop as I remove pressure.

If I draw a line really slow, the line will eventually get thinner as I remove pressure, but it takes a long time. There is a really long delay. In one of the lines on the HP, I went much slower, and you can see right before the end it kinda jumped to a lighter pressure.

I just realized I was using a different “brush” in the pic from the HP. I tried several different ones to see if it would make a difference, and it didn’t. I guess I took a pic of the results from a different pen on each one.

The pressure behavior is much smoother and more natural on the FW 12. It’s noticeable almost immediately.

[BigT]

So far, battery life on the HP is tracking to be better. It has a larger battery (59Wh, it is a 14" machine), so it’s not too surprising. Right now, it is using roughly 10% per hour. So I’m thinking around 8-10 hours, vs. 5-8 on the FW 12. I do have the keyboard backlight on (low), and the display is at 25-30%.

I’m running a similar usage as I did with the FW 12, though I maybe installed fewer programs during the test on the HP. But I have a YouTube video at 720p playing continuously, and I’m doing occasional browsing and writing in LibreOffice. In 3 hours the battery percentage on the HP has gone down almost exactly 30%

This isn’t a super scientific test. But it’s at least a general idea.

Edit: At 4 hours, the 10% per hour of battery use is staying very consistent. Again, on the HP Omnibook.

Life got in the way, so I had to call it for now. But after 4.5 hours it was down 45% from where it started. Pretty consistent. Definitely better battery life than the FW 12, but not worlds better. And not too surprising since it has a larger battery. I think it did generally stay a bit cooler during the test, but bear in mind, about 1/3rd of the underside of the HP is a vent. So it’s also not surprising that the underside doesn’t get as warm, at least when that isn’t blocked.

[Jorg_Frohberg]

@BigT
Wow, big thx for all the analysis!