I’m not sure having /some/ rules instead of /none at all/ qualifies as “strict”, but that’s by the by. The curious part is where the forum moderation war spilt to a tech company that had nothing to do with those forums.
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For you for taking the time to create an account to make yourself heard! The world needs more brave people who do the right thing.
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Keep posting! Normalize decency.
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By spamming? Cluttering threads? Violating community guidelines? You and I have very different ideas on how to achieve what is desired here.
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Vaxry was on the Freedesktop forums basically because he worked with the standards put forth by freedesktop in his program. An unrelated third party reported the unrelated forum to Redhat, redhat then exercised their moderation power over Freedesktop, first temporarily blocking him over conduct of someone else, then permanently banning him from freedesktop when he refused to change his moderation rules.
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Imagine being so radicalized that you compare anyone you don’t agree with to Hitler.
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Which is why a big tent approach is so important.
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Why do you keep bringing up “violating community guidelines”? There are word-makers on this forum that violate decency. Rules should promote decency and goodness so that humanity can progress. Any guideline that doesn’t promote that is against the real rules of progress.
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Since this thread seems to be locked, going to respond here: Framework supporting far-right racists?
@nrp, in all kindness: WTF?
I bought one of the original Framework laptops (1st gen FW 13), so I’ve been here since the beginning. I’ve recommended Framework to anybody who will listen - not because it’s the cheapest (it’s not), but because the concept of a laptop as repairable and upgradable as a desktop is *amazing*. It’s not the cheapest at the outset, but it can be the cheapest *over time*.
But I’m saying all of this to contextualize that I’ve been here since day 1 (as a customer, obviously).
I’ve helped out on the forums a lot, especially in the initial days (life got in the way, as it so often does), so it’s not like I’m a stranger there either (again, contextualizing since some people will probably come @ me saying I haven’t been around recently).
You are making the classic assumption that a ‘big tent’ can include fascists and far-right racists, xenophobes, transphobes, and others without alienating normal people. It can’t. I’m sure you’ve heard of the parable of the Nazi bar, so I won’t repeat it here, but it’s a quick web search away if you’re not familiar.
It is easy to say, in theory, that we should all just get along. But what do you do when the others *don’t* want to coexist? There is a difference between “your tax policy sucks” and “trans people shouldn’t exist”, right? We can agree that those are two different kinds of statements. And I hoped we could agree that the latter kind of statement doesn’t *deserve* the same kind of credence we might give to the former. But your response suggests otherwise.
“Diversity of thought” only works when people’s basic existince isn’t being challenged. It’s for tax policy and monetary policy, not for transphobia and racism. If someone came up and said “I believe we should have slavery again, and you have to respect my opinion because of diversity of thought”, what would your response be? I *hope* it would be to say “Nah bro, all people deserve freedom”.
So if you’re *so* committed to a big tent, would you be okay with giving money to Andrew Tate, defending it the same way? Or the literal Proud Boys? Or, to put it another way, if an open source project you supported turned out to have a leader who is a member of Patriot Front or the Proud Boys, would you stop monetarily supporting them? I pick those orgs because they are self-identified neofascists.
The people defending DHH seem to not *want* to read the evidence, including his *own words*. The *best* defense could be that supporting the project doesn’t mean supporting *him*, but that falls apart immediately if he’s benefiting *at all* from that monetary donation (is he?).
The *only* way this works out IMO is if the money goes strictly to the *org* and none of the members individually benefit from that money. Maybe that’s the case here, IDK.
But honestly, the framing of the response was completely disheartening because it discards literally *all* of the lessons we should have learned from the way Trump and *self-described* white nationalists have risen to power. They did it by suggesting awful things and saying we *must* give them airtime because of “diversity of thought”. They did it by insisting that their lies are truths, that transphobia and racism and Islamophobia and all of the rest of it are acceptable.
The point is that whether or not DHH is personally racist or Islamophobic or transphobic or whatever is honestly not the point. If his statements could have come out of the mouth of someone in The Proud Boys or Patriot Front, then I don’t care what he believes in his heart of hearts. At best, he is spreading racist lies. At worst, he believes them.
It shouldn’t be hard to stop supporting people like him, and the fact that *this* was your first response is very telling. At best, this is complacency and a sense of having cornered the market (where *else* are you going to go for extensively repairable laptops?). At worst, this is you *actively* saying you will throw money at whomever, no matter *how* odious a character they are.
You might want to rethink this, just in terms of keeping your customers who aren’t facists.
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But for a big tent being full of nice people, you need to show bigots the door. There is no other way.
(that said, I am totally for restorative justice and against crucifications for life. People are allowed to change. But we also see what tolerance for bigots does to public spaces)
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Yes! Fight the tyranny of forums not having rules that prevent people saying horrible things by going to other forums somewhere else and breaking their rules!
Good grief.
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Report such posts and move on. It’s what I have done. Literally nothing else is required or asked from you. The mod team will do their job and remove such posts. Creating more threads and more opportunities for such hateful comments just adds to the job. Other users not following forum rules doesn’t give you license to do the same
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Not anyone, just the people who you know, say slurs against people who are like me.
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Those threads are being locked because some users are actively getting really out of line, however it’s an entirely automated system based on the amount of user reports being made and I don’t think it’s explicitly a violation of Acceptable Use or the FAQ standards to post threads on the same subject (but not explicitly the same exact statement). Would require mod input though, but I haven’t seen these threads being manually locked so, shrug.
yeah like, I don’t particularly care if Framework supports someone who thinks a hyper capitalist death spiral is the only way society can exist, but I do care if Framework supports someone who hosts and engages with really hostile hate on trans people or other minorities like that.
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Look, this whole situation isn’t just some internet drama about “free speech” or “cancel culture.” It’s a perfect example of what happens when a company tries to play the “we’re neutral” card in a world where neutrality isn’t actually neutral.
Framework says they’re just sponsoring open-source projects, not endorsing anyone’s politics. But when the people leading those projects have a history of racist or exclusionary stuff, pretending it doesn’t matter is taking a side. You’re choosing comfort over accountability. That’s the same logic companies use every time they say “we don’t do politics” while quietly supporting people who make life worse for others.
Think of it like this: if you’re gonna sell yourself as the good-guy company that cares about repairability, sustainability, and making tech better for everyone, you don’t get to shrug when your money helps someone who actively drives people out of the community. That’s not neutrality. That’s complicity, and its dressed up as “business-as-usual”.
And the people calling this out aren’t trying to “cancel” Framework, they’re acting like actual global citizens. They’re saying, “Hey, if you benefit from an open and inclusive world, you have a responsibility to protect it.” That’s the kind of moral consistency we keep asking for from tech companies. You can’t build a better future on top of people you’re unwilling to stand up for.
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Reading the last year or two of posts on hyprland, it appears that they are improving.
People with horrible views have been banned.
So, I don’t think they are, recently, as extreme as people are making out.
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BTW, we learned from the legal precedent of Rusty and Edie’s BBS back in the 90’s that SOME moderation is actually worse than NO moderation. When they were sued, if he had not deleted any of the things uploaded to his site, he could have claimed to be an open forum rather than a publisher, but because he did remove some content from the BBS, he was a publisher endorsing that content legally speaking.
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The creator is one of the “people with horrible views”
Calling trans people slurs is bad.
has the creator, Vaxry, been banned?
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Additionally, some people seem to think that open-source software, tech companies, etc. can be “apolitical”, as if that’s a thing, and that being “apolitical” is some virtue that we should strive for. A reminder that Framework’s ostensible founding stance and ideology, to increase the accessibility of right-to-repair to more consumers, is inherently political. The open-source movement itself, the idea that software and ideas should be freely shared and improved upon by everyone regardless of ownership, is inherently political. As other people have reiterated in other threads, diversity and inclusivity are core tenets of a healthy and thriving open-source community, and simply ignoring the toxicity and fascist rhetoric of some members of that community, who want to exclude other members of the community, is the opposite of community-building.
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