Framework supporting far-right racists?

[not_winston_smith]

@Seth_Marinello

unfortunately backing someone like vaxry with a documented history of behavior counter to the health of the open source community immediately taints the framework brand, as has the handling of all this. People can use whatever software they like on their own terms, but sponsoring known controversial figures makes it hard to recommend your machines.

Wow. How about that. After this having already been cleared and covered in multiple posts…

Including just a few posts higher up:

Okay, so I’ve chatted with some of the admins for Hyprland’s community, they, Vaxry included, have seem to changed pretty positively. Vaxry himself has gotten personally involved in getting rid of transphobic members of the community as of late, which is really good… Overall, I think Hyprland and it’s community has grown recently. Time will tell whether that sticks true, but right now things are pretty positive! I don’t mind Framework financially supporting them now.

https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986/1864?u=not_winston_smith

[James_H_Whitcomb]

How are they a far-right racist?

[Seth_Marinello]

yes I have read about the improvements in the community, but why, out of the thousands and thousands of projects you could back, would you choose to back one with such a history without at least planning for concerns from the community?

Overall I just hope there is some learning happening here, but it doesn’t feel like that is the case with the public communications from Framework.

[not_winston_smith]

@Seth_Marinello

yes I have read about the improvements in the community, but why, out of the thousands and thousands of projects you could back, would you choose to back one with such a history without at least planning for concerns from the community?

Overall I just hope there is some learning happening here, but it doesn’t feel like that is the case with the public communications from Framework.

Two things we’ve seen in countless open source projects:

1. Appeasing will never be enough for some people
2. Making amends will never be sufficient for some people

There will always be another reason to complain, another purity test to fail. Never a second chance to be able to redeem yourself.

I wonder, who are the intolerant?

Isn’t this clearly showing that Framework is correct in wanting a more balanced and inclusive approach?

[acuteaura]

It wouldn’t matter to you anyway. You’ll always find that one person who will keep complaining as an example for everyone participating in purity testing even if most people were perfectly happy with amends.

I said so myself - that I haven’t personally assessed Hyprland’s community but that I’m happy if they’re doing better. Would I sponsor them? Maybe still not without community input. But I would consider it at least.

To you, those are all the same things. Your entire live is finding salient examples to confirm your preconceived conclusion with no room for nuance. At least I’ll assume it is your entire life, since you seem to come back to this thread over and over again to contribute absolutely nothing stale bait.

[JackOfManyTrades]

Not that I ever wanted to reply again in this thread…

But on some other manners, I looked deeper into Omarchy and specifically the huge bundle of its scripts and such packaging is not a great idea - something can easily go wrong during the setup and that would leave you with a broken system, furthermore all of that sudo usage, curl and bundled 3rd party packages are questionable and before switching to Omarchy, I would try this in virtual machine first and inspect everything carefully what is going on, or just set up similar environment manually instead, on top of Arch with Hyprland. For a beginner (not you actually, but in general), who is jumping from macOS or Windows to Linux, I would just recommend to use a well established distro such as Mint or Ubuntu for that reason alone.

[DSN]

@Seth_Marinello

unfortunately backing someone like vaxry with a documented history of behavior counter to the health of the open source community immediately taints the framework brand

Please stop propagating the slanders and defamation by people like Drew DeVault (a confirmed lolicon enjoyer and mysoginist who thinks women should be forced to have IUDs until they’re 24), we already went over the allegations against the leadership of the hyprland project and found them to be baseless currently:

@DSN

Okay, so I’ve chatted with some of the admins for Hyprland’s community, they, Vaxry included, have seem to changed pretty positively. Vaxry himself has gotten personally involved in getting rid of transphobic members of the community as of late, which is really good… Overall, I think Hyprland and it’s community has grown recently. Time will tell whether that sticks true, but right now things are pretty positive! I don’t mind Framework financially supporting them now.
Framework supporting far-right racists? - #629 by Senhara

@DSN

Additionally I can’t recall any major incidents since that one… I’m trying to investigate further to see if things are better now but, so far, as a PRELIMINARY look at things mind you, things seem… Actually not bad now? The things I’m seeing indicate the leadership actually cares about trans people rather than hates them, especially since I see a lot of very outwardly trans people hang regularly in the community, notably, VERY active community members and contributors/donators.
Framework supporting far-right racists? - #367 by Senhara

[catastrophic]

Hey everyone,

We want to share some clarity on how moderation will work for this thread going forward. This thread will be an exception to our usual community guidelines in other channels. Our goal is to create a space for open discussion that encourages self-expression and constructive criticism, while maintaining clear boundaries around respect and safety.

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If you have questions about a hidden post or moderation decision, you’re welcome to reach out. We’re open to discuss.

Moderator actions
Moderators may hide, delete, or issue a warning if a post includes any of the following:

• Harassment or threats: Any comments, posts, or replies that attack, demean, or intimidate an individual or group (e.g., homophobic slurs, anti-trans sentiment, calling other users “Nazis” or “fascists”, etc).
  Doxxing or sharing personal information: Any content that reveals or hints at private or identifying details about users, employees, or other individuals.

What is allowed on this thread:

• Critiques of Framework as a company: including strong or negative opinions about products, leadership, policies, or business practices.
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[Chiraag_Nataraj]

Overall seems reasonable. However, if someone has a position that is objectively fascist or white supremacist, it shouldn’t be beyond the pale to call them a fascist, right? Like, at that point it’s just factual?

[Kiwi]

Please don’t take this as criticism, but I feel it is important to add a few words. In my opinion, terms such as “mob” or “activists” are used on the same level as ‘Nazis’ or “fascists.” I am not concerned with what they really mean, but rather how these terms were used here. I assume that you, as the moderator, meant it that way, but I would like to emphasize it again.
Thank you for your consideration. I appreciate that you are allowing this controversial discussion to continue. Please note that I may not have understood everything in your message in detail, as English is not my native language.

[karakara]

Moderators may hide, delete, or issue a warning if a post includes any of the following:Harassment or threats: Any comments, posts, or replies that attack, demean, or intimidate an individual or group ([…], calling other users “Nazis” or “fascists”, etc).

So the companies stance is to defend Nazi ideology. This fully settles my stance on this- I’ll be fully withdrawing my support from Framework, decommissioning my current machine and moving on. I can’t stand by a company that is going to take stances like this, especially with the world in the state that it currently is in. Enjoy the Nazi bar.

[Charlie_6]

@karakara

So the companies stance is to defend Nazi ideology. This fully settles my stance on this- I’ll be fully withdrawing my support from Framework, decommissioning my current machine and moving on. I can’t stand by a company that is going to take stances like this, especially with the world in the state that it currently is in. Enjoy the Nazi bar.

Please quote @catastrophic’s word accurately

@catastrophic

Harassment or threats: Any comments, posts, or replies that attack, demean, or intimidate an individual or group (e.g., homophobic slurs, anti-trans sentiment, calling other users “Nazis” or “fascists”, etc).

Instead of deliberately omit

@catastrophic

e.g., homophobic slurs, anti-trans sentiment,

by […] and claim “companies defend Nazi ideology”.

Do better

[karakara]

The point of the omission isn’t to make them look worse, but rather to highlight the offending section- and I’m not familiar with Discourses BBCode format.

[Charlie_6]

@Chiraag_Nataraj

Overall seems reasonable. However, if someone has a position that is objectively fascist or white supremacist, it shouldn’t be beyond the pale to call them a fascist, right? Like, at that point it’s just factual?

My understanding is DHH is a public figure so strong criticisms like “DHH is a fascist” is allowed. Meanwhile, calling other users without proof is not allowed. There were factual Nazis in this forum who said slurs and something like certain groups should go away, these accounts were banned and with comments removed.

[Nikolai_Dontschuk]

Hard to ignore, from the quote, that two of those are protected (and persecuted) minorities and two are bloodthirsty ideologies (that persecuted those very minorities).

I’m not convinced it was deliberate, but it’s a jarring read to see them listed as like examples.

[Ivirono]

It’s done only to limit the repeating pattern of Name calling → response and Name calling without contributing anything more to the topic.

At this point it’s similar to a tactic used to disperse people protesting past the legal timeframe - no matter how valid is your opinion, you are being at best a nuisance to the peaceful people who just want to get work done. Even on this UK is a leading example with their new legislations against repeated offenders of public peace.

[Jesse2]

Another user from a new account here. I was excited about my next laptop being a FW laptop, but that excitement has fully gone now. But I just wanted to weigh in on the moderation choices in this thread (and yes, i’m one of those idiots that read the entire trainwreck.)

There is someone in this thread, repeatedly, but very reasonably, making the case that migration is bad. Northern European countries have apparently tried it, and have seen that it has failed. Saying that this is a majority opinion, and therefore fine and not problematic.

Never mind that there is a huge bias going on in that perception. See someone doing something you don’t like? That’s just one asshole. See someone you indentify as an outsider doing something you don’t like? Damn those outsiders and their conflicting culture!

Never mind that the media plays a huge role by assigning higher newsworthyness to crimes committed by immigrants, and in some cases just making shit up.

Never mind that people fleeing their original countries do so almost exclusively because of destabilisation caused by the very western countries they are fleeing to. By years of unfair resource extraction, wars and coups, getting rich on supplying the weapons for those “internal” wars, not to mention the devastating effects of climate change.

I’m not naming the account, and i’m not calling the person behind it a racist or fascist. Not because that’s now apparently against the forum rules, but because I don’t think that’s useful or necessary. That type of behavior however is very much from the fascist playbook.

They will not win over people by coming in and slinging slurs, or by saying they want to build concentration camps. Fascists know they need to work extra hard to be seen as reasonable and respectable. They will do their utmost to seem reasonable, law abiding, rule following and fair. While at the same time they advocate denying certain groups their human-rights based on where they were born.

Some people have mentioned that the “big tent” has already become a nazi tent, I hope this helps clarify why they might feel that way.

[Bogdan_Buduroiu]

Thank you for taking a bold decision wrt moderation on this platform. I’m very excited by the Framework project, and the amazing work put in by the community, I’d like for this community to maintain this helpful attitude focused on furthering the goals of the Framework project.

I’m also glad the mods have clearly stated that harassment is not allowed in this community.

This is not the place for social or political activism. When interacting with people around this project keep it on topic. While here, the only cause you should be fighting for is the project’s success. No distractions.

No distractions.

[not_winston_smith]

Based on the reactions to Framework explicitly clearing things up, I have to reiterate:

@not_winston_smith

• Appeasing will never be enough for some people
• Making amends will never be sufficient for some people

Nevertheless, Framework did the right thing by posting their message to clarify their position regarding this thread explicitly. They’re showing through both words and actions what inclusive community standards actually look like, not demanding ideological conformity, but ensuring respectful discourse.

That some still aren’t satisfied proves the point.

[Topcode]

@not_winston_smith

I wonder, who are the intolerant?

Paradox of tolerance

hint: the intolerant is the ones who want to kick anyone who isnt white out of countries. eg, DHH