Sad to hear, but not unexpected… There is pending Issue there, thats why they approve the Replacement pretty easy. But its still not resolved on Frameworks Side and also still no official Statement. Its hard to defend such an expensive Purchase.
After my Modification i am still strong where this CPU should perform.
I expanded my Support Request and had Questions about the Heatsink and LM Pad and furthermore. The Heatsink on Sale is the same as on Current Batches. They sell the Heatsink and not the Pad as the Pad is not included with the HS. Why not the Pad? Because they do not have a Replacement Guide is the official Answer. I call this BS. I doesnt add up. I really think they are Rotating behind the scenes. Either they got Screwed by the Manufacturers or they hoped it can slip. But its an Enthusiast Group they have as a Customer Group. So any Problems will Surface.
Thanks for posting this.
Now, I’m not even sure if I should ask for a new mainboard or not. @Chrysolite do you remember what score you had before? I’m curious about the degradation.
@Micah_Lindstrom I just reinstalled Windows and ran a test without even connecting to the internet.
So, no updates or apps installed.
As you can see, the average score over the course of the 10 minute run (12 passes) was 15670. The max CPU Package Power was 57.8W, with an average of 46.8W. The core-to-core delta (with Core0 being the coolest and Core3 being the hottest) was 6.8°C.
The performance loss is incredibly apparent from the get-go. We’ve now dropped to a 13952 average score over 11 runs (an 11% decrease from before), with CPU Package Power maxing at 37.4W (a 35% decrease) and averaging 34W (a 27% decrease). The core-to-core delta has shifted dramatically as well. Core4 now takes Core3’s place as the hottest core, and the delta is now 14.3°C (over double the prior reading).
I severely doubt that this has anything to do with potential CPU die degradation, so some element of the cooling solution is most likely degrading, thereby kneecapping the system’s maximum performance overall. Thankfully, this doesn’t affect my day-to-day tasks, so it’s not the end of the world personally, but I sincerely hope Framework resolve this sooner rather than later.
Well, Framework Support just got back to me, and now they want me to send the entire laptop in. Frankly, I think this borders on the absurd. The problem is completely isolated to the Mainboard and heatsink assembly, as demonstrated by your personal heatsink modifications that remedied the situation. I see no reason why they would need me to send the entire machine in. I would much rather keep replacing the Mainboard every once in a while until they get the issues sorted out.
I’m going to see if they’ll agree to cross-ship a new Laptop instead of making me wait on them to diagnose and fix at need.
Hi all, just wanted to comment on here so I can track the thread more
easily. I have the exact same issues and installed my
replacement on Sunday night. Testing immediately after install resulted in a 15,600-ish score which I was personally happy with.
Re-testing just yesterday and today, my score has dropped down to 14,800 on the 16th, to today’s score of 14,500.
Someone at Framework really needs to take note of this issue. In the meantime, I may look to source some PTM7950 and try lapping the heatsink like some of you have.
EDIT: I’d like to also add that Core 4 is also the hottest core in my case, I’m currently hitting 100c on it and my package power sits at about 40w as of today. On the first day of my replacement I was getting about 56w during a cinebench R23 run.
Lowest is Core 0 at 89c and highest is Core 4 at 100c. I am getting mid 15,000s (between 15,400 and 15,500). I only did 2 minutes (3 passes) because 10 just feels too long. Is that good?
I’m running a 5 minute test now to see if it’s still the same. - EDIT: Just finished - 15,895. This time I have the laptop sitting on a stand that lifts the rear up about an inch for airflow. Seems pretty good for stock compared to what I’ve been reading here so far. I guess if I go with the PTM7950, I can get to 16k, but it’s not really worth the cost and effort right now (we’ll see if performance degrades later).
I haven’t done anything to mine. While I’m a Batch 20, the motherboard was recently replaced so I have a post “pre-order batch” motherboard that came with the keyboard stiffening foams already installed. That said, I think Framework maybe aware of the thermal issues. I sent my laptop in because the touchpad and spacer panels were misaligned and they replaced things I didn’t expect (speakers and motherboard).
The average for me from hot is 16,500 pts with the new thermal solution.
15.000 - 15.400 is not that bad if it will remain like that.
Did you have the laptop back for more than a week? I’d check this again in a month.
Usually, it will go down after 5 tests of 10 minutes each.
Well thats a really Good Score, but please check and report back in a Week or so.
I didn’t report back in here, but currently im running another Heatspreader in a PTM7950 mounted to the Vapor Chamber.
The Heatsink is able to Spread 58w sustained TDP and i am able to hit 78w Peak TDP after a Cold Boot.
@Chrysolite Did you end up getting them to cross-ship a new laptop?
I sent mine in on August 17 to diagnose and fix as needed, and it took them until Nov 7 to finally deliver another one to me. That’s 12 weeks / 84 days. Nothing would happen for weeks until I’d send in irate email, and then magically the next day they’d have a status update. Then more weeks would go by with me waiting and nothing happening. And so on. I shared more details in LTT Secret Shopping Framework Discussion Thread. I did ask them to cross-ship me a new one, but they responded
Unfortunately we do not have a system where we can send out a temporary replacement laptop while your system is in our repair center
…
Please note that our RMA and Repair team is currently experiencing high contact volume and response times have been impacted, resulting in minor delays.
Who on earth would ever call 12 weeks without a computer a “minor delay”. Just ridiculous.
Performance of the repaired system is worse than when I shipped it to them, but I guess I’ll deal with it since it’s not too far off. Scoring Cinebench R23 multi of 15737 with max core difference of 20C, drawing 58W peak / 45W steady-state. That’s still 600 points lower than NotebookCheck, but we may not be testing like-for-like so I guess I’ll deal with it for now.
I don’t know; the story from service changed each time I reached out. I should have recorded my serial numbers before sending it in. I can understand lengthy delays are sometimes inevitable, but the abysmal communication exacerbated it to be a hundred times worse.
Port 3 doesn’t work with it. For more details, it’s an AVerMedia Live Gamer Portable 2 PLUS - GC513, which is a USB2 device that sends a 1080p60 video feed to the computer that appears just like a webcam. It’s that specific port, so I don’t see how it could be a software issue. I tried all these combinations to verify:
USB-A expansion card 1 in slot 1 works
USB-A expansion card 1 in slot 2 works
USB-A expansion card 1 in slot 3 does not work
USB-A expansion card 1 in slot 4 works
USB-A expansion card 1 in slot 5 works
USB-A expansion card 1 in slot 6 works
USB-A expansion card 2 in slot 1 works
USB-A expansion card 2 in slot 2 works
USB-A expansion card 2 in slot 3 does not work
USB-A expansion card 2 in slot 4 works
USB-A expansion card 2 in slot 5 works
USB-A expansion card 2 in slot 6 works
According to https://webcamtests.com, the feed from the Live Gamer Plus is 1920x1080 @ 60fps when my Nintendo Switch is turned on, and when it’s just showing the “No signal” screen (see screenshot below). This matches the details at https://www.avermedia.com/us/product-detail/GC513, which says it outputs 1080p60 over the USB 2.0 connection. The device can pass a 4K signal through from your gaming device to your TV, but can only send 1080p60 over USB to a computer.
On the other hand, I also have a Blue Yeti microphone and a Logitech BRIO 860-000521 which work fine in that port. My best guess is those other devices use the physical hardware with a different polling rate (Blue Yeti) or different pins (the BRIO camera is USB3) or something that causes the issue. What I don’t know is whether that’s a Framework hardware design issue, or whether it’s just my mainboard/chassis/something.
I told Framework I’d be happy to send the AVerMedia capture card with my computer so they could see the issue themselves. But they weren’t interested. Yet another disappointment to me.
i Use 3 &6 for one USB A Card and one USB A Dongle Hider with internal Logitech Bolt Adapter. Also sometimes for my MicroSD Adapter. So well no it is useful, as all my other Ports are populated with USB C and the ocasional DP/HDMI Card.
That thread says 3 and 6 have the same function – but my capture card works in 6, just not in 3.
That thread also says the ports are useless because they can only supply 0.9 A @ 5V, which is 4.5 W. But I checked the power usage of this using USB Device Tree Viewer, and it only uses 100 mA. Although software sometimes lies, so really the main argument of a hardware issue is that it works in 6, just not 3.
Analysis from USB Device Tree Viewer
=========================== USB Port3 ===========================
Connection Status : 0x01 (Device is connected)
Port Chain : 3-2-3
Properties : 0x01
IsUserConnectable : yes
PortIsDebugCapable : no
PortHasMultiCompanions : no
PortConnectorIsTypeC : no
ConnectionIndex : 0x03 (Port 3)
CompanionIndex : 0
CompanionHubSymLnk : USB#VID_05E3&PID_0625#6&347d326b&0&7#{f18a0e88-c30c-11d0-8815-00a0c906bed8}
CompanionPortNumber : 0x03 (Port 3)
-> CompanionPortChain : 3-7-3
========================== Summary =========================
Vendor ID : 0x07CA (AVerMedia Technologies, Inc.)
Product ID : 0x1513
USB Version : 2.0
Port maximum Speed : High-Speed (Companion Port 3-7-3 is doing the SuperSpeed and SuperSpeedPlus or higher)
Device maximum Speed : High-Speed
Device Connection Speed : High-Speed
Self powered : yes
Demanded Current : 100 mA
Used Endpoints : 2
Video : UVC Version 1.00
-------- Default Video Modes --------
1920 x 1080 @ 1666666.66 fps: Frame Based Payload
1920 x 1080 @ 60 fps : MJPEG
1280 x 720 @ 2000000 fps : Frame Based Payload
1280 x 720 @ 60 fps : MJPEG
720 x 576 @ 705032.704 fps: Frame Based Payload
720 x 576 @ 50 fps : MJPEG
720 x 480 @ 3333333.33 fps: Frame Based Payload
720 x 480 @ 60 fps : MJPEG
640 x 480 @ 1410065.408 fps: Frame Based Payload
640 x 480 @ 60 fps : MJPEG
2592 x 1944 : Still Image
1280 x 720 : Still Image
640 x 480 : Still Image
320 x 240 : Still Image
======================== USB Device ========================
+++++++++++++++++ Device Information ++++++++++++++++++
Device Description : USB Composite Device
Device Path : \\?\USB#VID_07CA&PID_1513#0000000000513#{a5dcbf10-6530-11d2-901f-00c04fb951ed} (GUID_DEVINTERFACE_USB_DEVICE)
Kernel Name : \Device\USBPDO-11
Device ID : USB\VID_07CA&PID_1513\0000000000513
Hardware IDs : USB\VID_07CA&PID_1513&REV_0100 USB\VID_07CA&PID_1513
Driver KeyName : {36fc9e60-c465-11cf-8056-444553540000}\0038 (GUID_DEVCLASS_USB)
Driver : \SystemRoot\System32\drivers\usbccgp.sys (Version: 10.0.22621.3672 Date: 2024-06-12 Company: Microsoft Corporation)
Driver Inf : C:\Windows\inf\usb.inf
Legacy BusType : PNPBus
Class : USB
Class GUID : {36fc9e60-c465-11cf-8056-444553540000} (GUID_DEVCLASS_USB)
Service : usbccgp
Enumerator : USB
Location Info : Port_#0003.Hub_#0007
Address : 3
Location IDs : PCIROOT(0)#PCI(0801)#PCI(0003)#USBROOT(0)#USB(2)#USB(3), ACPI(_SB_)#ACPI(PCI0)#ACPI(GP17)#ACPI(XHC0)#ACPI(RHUB)#ACPI(PRT2)#USB(3)
Container ID : {799bd669-326b-5459-8dae-21862c518738}
Manufacturer Info : (Standard USB Host Controller)
Capabilities : 0x94 (Removable, UniqueID, SurpriseRemovalOK)
Status : 0x0180600A (DN_DRIVER_LOADED, DN_STARTED, DN_DISABLEABLE, DN_REMOVABLE, DN_NT_ENUMERATOR, DN_NT_DRIVER)
Problem Code : 0
Address : 3
EnhancedPowerMgmtEnabled : 0
Power State : D0 (supported: D0, D3, wake from D0)
+++++++++++++++++ Registry USB Flags +++++++++++++++++
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\usbflags\07CA15130100
osvc : REG_BINARY 00 00
---------------- Connection Information ---------------
Connection Index : 0x03 (Port 3)
Connection Status : 0x01 (DeviceConnected)
Current Config Value : 0x01 (Configuration 1)
Device Address : 0x07 (7)
Is Hub : 0x00 (no)
Device Bus Speed : 0x02 (High-Speed)
Number of open Pipes : 0x01 (1 pipe to data endpoints)
Pipe[0] : EndpointID=7 Direction=IN ScheduleOffset=0 Type=Interrupt wMaxPacketSize=0x10 bInterval=1 -> 270 Bits/ms = 33750 Bytes/s
Data (HexDump) : 03 00 00 00 12 01 00 02 EF 02 01 40 CA 07 13 15 ...........@....
00 01 01 02 03 01 01 02 00 07 00 01 00 00 00 01 ................
00 00 00 07 05 87 03 10 00 01 00 00 00 00 ..............
--------------- Connection Information V2 -------------
Connection Index : 0x03 (3)
Length : 0x10 (16 bytes)
SupportedUsbProtocols : 0x03
Usb110 : 1 (yes, port supports USB 1.1)
Usb200 : 1 (yes, port supports USB 2.0)
Usb300 : 0 (no, port not supports USB 3.0) -> but Companion Port 3-7-3 does
ReservedMBZ : 0x00
Flags : 0x00
DevIsOpAtSsOrHigher : 0 (Device is not operating at SuperSpeed or higher)
DevIsSsCapOrHigher : 0 (Device is not SuperSpeed capable or higher)
DevIsOpAtSsPlusOrHigher : 0 (Device is not operating at SuperSpeedPlus or higher)
DevIsSsPlusCapOrHigher : 0 (Device is not SuperSpeedPlus capable or higher)
ReservedMBZ : 0x00
Data (HexDump) : 03 00 00 00 10 00 00 00 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
---------------------- Device Descriptor ----------------------
bLength : 0x12 (18 bytes)
bDescriptorType : 0x01 (Device Descriptor)
bcdUSB : 0x200 (USB Version 2.0)
bDeviceClass : 0xEF (Miscellaneous)
bDeviceSubClass : 0x02
bDeviceProtocol : 0x01 (IAD - Interface Association Descriptor)
bMaxPacketSize0 : 0x40 (64 bytes)
idVendor : 0x07CA (AVerMedia Technologies, Inc.)
idProduct : 0x1513
bcdDevice : 0x0100
iManufacturer : 0x01 (String Descriptor 1)
Language 0x0409 : "AVerMedia Technologies, Inc."
iProduct : 0x02 (String Descriptor 2)
Language 0x0409 : "Live Gamer Portable 2 Plus"
iSerialNumber : 0x03 (String Descriptor 3)
Language 0x0409 : "0000000000513"
bNumConfigurations : 0x01 (1 Configuration)
Data (HexDump) : 12 01 00 02 EF 02 01 40 CA 07 13 15 00 01 01 02 .......@........
03 01 ..
Well maybe they are useless for many Applications, but i can charge my Phone/use my Mouse Dongle etc on those Slots 3&6 and i have alot of USB C for my eGPU, 240W Charger, USB C Hub and external SSD on the other Ports.
I actually decided against asking at all, opting to wait and see what other users were experiencing and what solutions were being put together in the meantime. In hindsight, I think this was the best course of action for me to take.
I’m incredibly concerned that the company hasn’t made any public-facing statements on the issue yet. It may very well be that they’re working on a solution, but being kept in the dark about it doesn’t feel great.
I’m seeing some users gathering info to bring to Linus Media Group, seeing as Linus is an investor in the company. While I’m not sure how effective this will be in eliciting a public response, I see no harm in trying.
Since my FW16 in its somewhat CPU-crippled state is still meeting my needs as a student very effectively, I haven’t finagled with it further. Once the semester is over, I’ll see about perhaps switching to PTM7950 or even going for @PSierra117’s copper shim mod. Who knows, maybe Framework will have given us more info by then? We’ll see.
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