How to get an invoice?

So sorry i’ve just read this after my order. Same here as with the other customers: We really like the idea behind the frame.work laptop and would like to evaluate a single device before ordering more thereafter. BUT: If i won’t get a proper invoice i’ll definitely not start an evaluation. There is plenty of work to do in IT administration even without hassle with the accounting dep.

Hopefully this will change soon.

Best,
Thomas

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Same here as with the other customers: We really like the idea behind the frame.work laptop and would like to evaluate a single device before ordering more thereafter. That’s the point indeed, I had misread and thus misinterpreted your post, which is why I had subsequently deleted my reply. Sorry for the confusion. I assume German ones would have the relevant one listed too.

Fortunatley our company is happy with the commercial invcoice /packing list.

One thing which should be managed better: During the order process I am asked for an invoice address. There I have put in name, company, address.
Unfortunatley my invoice is missing the company name, what sucks…Would be nice, if the company name was printed on it.

Is there any way to receive a corrected version?

Welcome to the forum!

It would probably be a good idea to contact support and mention the “Recent Customs Issues” support article which has been referenced a couple of times above.

Please let us know how this goes!

I received my framework package yesterday. It indeed contains a commercial invoice from Framework directly, which shows an amount less than what I paid (I’m assuming this is the ex VAT amount, but I haven’t checked the amount yet). The invoice does contain a couple of VAT numbers, including one for the Netherlands, but AFAIU VAT numbers are really needed only when reverse charge is applied (so no VAT paid to Framework, and my business would need to declare VAT itself), which is not the case here. To be eligable for a VAT deduction, an invoice has to specify the VAT amount and tariff, which this invoice does not.

Previously, @andyk2 suggested that that VAT will be managed in the destination country by the shipping company, which I guess is DHL in my case. I wonder if the VAT numbers listed are really DHL’s VAT numbers, or Framework’s? I don’t have the invoice here, so I’ll check tonight or tomorrow.

I also wonder if I should be contacting DHL to get an invoice for the VAT for this shipment? Or is that something that only Framework can do?

Interesting article, though a bit complex for my limited German skills. IIUC, though, it basically says that there are a lot of different ways that one can arrange import duties and VAT on imported products, but I’m not quite sure which one is used by Framework here. It also says that eventually, the company that is eligable for VAT deduction is the company that is actually using the imported product, regardless of who paid it to the national tax office, so that would mean I am indeed eligable to deduct the amount. If I can’t get any better invoice, I might end up just deducting the VAT based on my own calculation, which I think is not technically allowed, but does seem acceptable for my own small one-person company (might lead to some discussion if I get audited, but given it’s really just missing documentation and not improper deduction, I’m not too worried). This is probably different for people working for bigger companies, who cannot afford to have things that are not 100% correctly documented…

You have paid the equivalent amount of the VAT and all the charges associated with it to Framework.

What happens later down the line depends on how Framework have set up the arrangements. It could be three things:

  • Framework are themselves VAT registered, in which case they do the paperwork and pass on the VAT to your government as any other company would.
  • Linex Distribution (the distributors Framework employ) are VAT registered, in which case they collect the VAT from Framework, as well as probably a fee for all the paperwork, and pass on the VAT to your government.
  • Neither Framework nor Linex are VAT Registered, in which case Linex will collect the VAT amount from Framework, plus enough to cover their fees and the fees their subcontractors will charge, and pass it to their subcontractors (DHL/DPD depending on the route taken), who will then do the paperwork and charge pass on the VAT to your government.

The VAT numbers on the invoice will be the ones of the VAT registered company that has ultimately collected and will pay the VAT on your behalf, whichever of those scenarios it is. It shouldn’t really matter ultimately, because what matters is that it is paid and therefore not payable by the recipient at point of entry into the destination country.

The customs invoice should show prices exclusive of VAT and duties of the destination country, because customs forms always work on pre-taxes and charges values.

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Right, that makes sense.

Running the VAT numbers on my invoice against the EU VAT checker and the EORIs against the EU EORI checker and UK EORI checker, I find that all of them are registered to Framework itself, so that would mean the first of your options applies and Framework itself passes the VAT to our local tax office.

For completeness, the VAT numbers listed are: DE350806374, FR29909542169, NL826575791B01 and none for the UK, the EORI numbers are: FRUS1209508090001 (for both France and Germany), GB086788641000, and “BSN: 8265.75.791” for the Netherlands, which does not validate as a valid EORI (and “BSN” typically means “Citizen Service Number”, so a person identifier, which was historically used as part of the VAT numbers for single-person companies, but I’m doubtful that this is actually a real BSN).

Right, but for properly deducting my VAT, I would technically need an invoice that does specify the VAT amount.

Also, looking at the commercial invoice attached, it actually specifies prices including VAT. The amount is lower than what I paid, but not because of VAT, but because the invoice only specifies package contents, so the Windows license is not listed on the invoice.

So that makes the invoice even less usable for VAT deductions… I think I’ll try asking Framework Customer Service if they can provide a complete invoice, at least with all products included, and maybe even VAT listed.

For reference, here’s the invoice I received with the package two days ago:

It is possible to request the “Steuerbescheid” of your shipment from DHL Express, which is the official customs document stating the paid import tax (EUSt) by DHL Express in your(!) (not Frameworks) name. Maybe this might be useful for some of you.


(and some many more pages with every little detail and part)

Just send a mail to

mail address

Zollrechnung-DE@dpdhl.com

with your DHL bill no (AWB 0000000000) and ask for your “Steuerbescheid”.


Fun fact: The Framework Laptop is a “LAPTOP (TRAGBARE AUTOMATISCHE DATENVERARBEITUNGSMASCHINE UNTER 10 KG GEWICHT)” = portable automatic data processing machine with less than 10kg weight

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According to my customs sheet, they actually to my surprise paid taxes on the total price, not only the net value.

That is super cool, thanks for sharing this! This document might indeed be enough proof for the tax authorities that the import VAT has been paid on behalf of the buyer. @Michael_Siebert @Ingo_Korte it would be super interesting to know whether this would actually make your accounting departments happy.

Still it would be much more desirable of course if Framework were to offer an easier way to purchase stuff for businesses, which apparently is in the works and will hopefully be available soon.

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The Support will surely correct the Price information and Part list if you request it.

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Thank you so much. I got an email answer with all the documents attached within 5 minutes. :sweat_smile:

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@Ian_Thomas
The problem is that I guess even with a corrected invoice, the “Steuerbescheid” mentioned by @biber is most likely incorrect because of the wrong invoice. As far as I am concerned I would rather not mention this “affair” to my accounting appartment as @Oliver suggested. I’m afraid to wake sleeping dogs. :grimacing:

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This will definitely be the case. I don’t know why but Framework is taxing their products more or less completely wrong… So more or less we all pay more than we’d have to:

We as customers pay tax included, let’s say 1000€ to be simple. That would be 840,34€ net + 159,66€ tax for Germany (19%).
But since it gets declared gross value on the commercial invoice, we pay tax on the full 1000€, so that’s 190€ instead of ~160€ (= 30€/19% more tax paid than neccessary).

I don’t even want know about the Commercial Invoices which stated EUR but with values still in USD like yours and others… That would be an additional 10% or so.

Well, at least you (or rather Framework) paid more tax than necessary (for you), not less. :smiley:

I came to the forum because the customer support is really unhelpful. Great to see, that I am not the only one who’s frustrated about framework in that respect. Seriously, WTF? I would be surprised if it’s legal to sell products without an invoice in Europe.

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In het last few weeks, as promised I’ve set an inquiry to support as well, to ask if they could maybe retroactively provide a tax invoice (now, or maybe later if they improved their process), or if not that, a “commercial invoice” that also lists the software license I purchased (which is missing from the customs invoice).

Here’s what they told me (over a dozen or so messages):

  • The commercial invoice is intended for customs only, not for " individual use or usage as a formal invoice of purchase".
  • They pointed me to the order/shipping confirmation e-mails, which do contain the full list of products and prices (but not VAT).
  • They provided me with a screenshot from their internal order system, which does list the (total) VAT amount for the order (it’s still not a proper tax invoice, lacking VAT tariff, invoice number, addresses, VAT number, etc. but I’m considering to use it in my books anyway).
  • Framework is not currently VAT-registered in the Netherlands, that process is running but not complete yet. Apparently only the German registration is “far along in the process but still not fully complete”.

Especially the last point is weird, given that they do list a Dutch (and German) VAT number. I asked about this, which they escalated to the finance team, but I haven’t heard back from them yet.

I wonder if maybe they already have VAT numbers assigned, but not completed the full registration yet? And maybe they are collecting VAT already, but are keeping it for now until they finish VAT registration and will be paying the VAT to our local governments retroactively in bulk later or so?

Here’s one excerpt from a response that could suggest this, note the remark about “capturing VAT”.

We do not have a Dutch VAT number for Framework as we are not registered. That is all in process with the business infrastructure that is being
built out for launch, hopefully later this year. In order to have a VAT number/ID, you must be registered with the tax authorities and that in
itself is a process that takes time. As of right now, only our German registration is far along in the process but still not fully complete. We
capture VAT as is our duty by law in order to sell/ship our product to the Netherlands, but again, we do not have a dedicated VAT ID for your
country as of yet, per my previous messaging.

Looking at the Dutch rules, a tax invoice is only required when selling to businesses (plus some specific cases, like wholesale or new vehicles). Maybe some proof of purchase is still required, but not a full tax invoice (with all of its requirements).

See Wie zijn verplicht te factureren? (Dutch)

Seems EU rules are similar: VAT invoicing rules

That does include a tax invoice requirement for selling to consumers when “distance selling when taxable in another EU country”, but I suspect that in this case (and I think this is mandated for consumer purchases by the article 33 linked), the transactions are actually taxable in the country of the consumer and an invoice is not required (that would mean that Framework is required to pay local taxes, so there is no need to go through the hoops of getting a tax refund in another country).

This is also interesting, as it suggests that DHL pays the VAT on behalf of Framework after all, which would not be entirely consistent with my theory above…

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It is indeed like this. - Framework itself doesn’t pay any taxes themselves (at least directly).

They are using the services of DHL Express, who will register the shipment at customs (on behalf of you as the receiver), pay the arising import tax, and will bill the amount to Framework (+ service fee) instead to you. (Therefore we are also more or less paying import tax on the paid tax included in the price…)

Otherwise there would have to be a customs document stating framework paid the taxes beforehand to the customs. But since they didn’t do that, DHL Express did all of the customs work.

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As soon as there will be info that framework laptop is able to issue invoices that will be acceptable without hassle for german accounting departments I will try, that the framework laptop will become the standard laptop in my company. :grinning:
That as an result of a exceptionally good experience with the customer support regarding Fan Noise (Fan noise after a week of use)
Keep up the good work!

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Great to see some community progress here.

  1. The scan you uploaded says. " Hinsichtlich aller angemeldeten Waren nicht zum vollen Vorsteuerabzug berechtigt" Does anyone know what it means?

  2. I lost my AWB / sticker on the package, so if you have the same problem here is what I did. The original Email did not have a tracking link but hub-ez recognized it and still has records of my shipment from Feb.
    https://www.hub-ez.com/Tracking/Tracking?trackingNumber=xxxxx
    In the details it states the DHL AWS “Shipment handed to coloader - DHL Alternate Number xxxx”

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I didn’t have the AWB number either. I asked with the DHL tracking number and I also mentioned my delivery address, to give some evidence, that I really was the recipient of the packet. Then they sent me the documents by email within a few hours.
I think the alternate number is the DHL tracking number.